From One Man Army to Portfolio CEO w/ Alan Gould | Elite Performance Podcast #87

00:00:00:04 - 00:00:10:07
Alan Gould
I kept going back to what felt safe, what felt familiar, and where I felt in control. Feeling smart. Feeling capable. Made it really easy to ignore the work that needed to be done.

00:00:10:07 - 00:00:13:00
Itamar Marani
So how did it or the second time? What was the shift?

00:00:13:01 - 00:00:24:15
Alan Gould
All the background chatter, all the F parts and maybe they're all gone. It was all just no questions. Don't need any more help. I just need to get to execution now.

00:00:24:17 - 00:00:29:09
Itamar Marani
So why were you so skeptical about the second time around in the arena? And if it actually got results?

00:00:29:14 - 00:00:56:04
Alan Gould
Haha, yeah. I came in with low expectations because, the first time around had already delivered such massive personal breakthroughs for me. So I honestly, I didn't expect another major shift. So coming in second time around, I knew the drill. I knew the process. I was impressed that, like, a lot of the techniques had changed so I couldn't rely on, on how it had worked before.

00:00:56:04 - 00:01:01:19
Alan Gould
But yeah, now you got me. I didn't didn't expect it to hit as hard again.

00:01:01:21 - 00:01:05:06
Itamar Marani
So how did it harder the second time? What was the show?

00:01:05:08 - 00:01:30:03
Alan Gould
Yeah, the the shift was all the wins, all the personal breakthroughs that I'd had in, you know, what got me to where I am now? They had already happened, and they were mindset changes that I've made effectively. So, like, thinking more like an executive versus thinking like an operator instead of saying, what can I do to fix this?

00:01:30:04 - 00:01:47:11
Alan Gould
It was more, what can I, create to help this problem be solved? Who do I need to bring in? I done that. But the problem was, in the day to day work outside of the area that I set for deep work, I was still defaulting to operator behavior. I still making excuses to work on my product.

00:01:47:12 - 00:02:11:10
Alan Gould
I was still making excuses to to jump into operator mode. Ultimately, what you helped me to realize though, and once once you pointed this out to me, it was like I couldn't even see it. It was just I kept going back to what felt safe, what felt familiar, and where I felt competent. Like where I really felt like I was in control.

00:02:11:12 - 00:02:22:05
Alan Gould
I had all this other work that I had to do to grow the business, to get to the next level. Yeah. And I wasn't doing it as defaulting back to that behavior.

00:02:22:07 - 00:02:28:05
Itamar Marani
So question time, because this is something that I feel like you understood intellectually the first go around.

00:02:28:06 - 00:02:30:03
Alan Gould


00:02:30:05 - 00:02:40:18
Itamar Marani
What do you think enabled that to really sink in deep enough perhaps to really get to that point where I can't deny this anymore.

00:02:40:19 - 00:03:04:02
Alan Gould
Honestly it, it's because you can see it only on a level that there's, there's a level that you can intellectually understand what's going on. You can know at the end of the day, did I really do what I needed to do? But it just becomes so easy to push that down and replace it with. Yeah, but I built this feature.

00:03:04:04 - 00:03:23:17
Alan Gould
Yeah, but, this customer asked for this. So instead of trying to get new customers, which is what I need, I just focused on looking after this existing customer. It it just became easier to push all those, scary thoughts, the work that needed to be done, and replace it with that operator mode. Yeah, but look at how productive I'm being.

00:03:23:19 - 00:03:51:15
Alan Gould
So that's where the intellectual layer just squashed down by the operator, the and and that's why I say like feeling smart, feeling capable. Made it really easy to ignore that. So the way you help me break through was flipping the script on that. Like, why aren't you doing this stuff that is unsafe, that is unknown, is unfamiliar, that, you know, you might look like an idiot, you might make mistakes, you might not be perfect.

00:03:51:15 - 00:04:04:05
Alan Gould
It was like, whoa. Once you pulled that rug out from under me or whatever. Right? Yeah. That's when it really clicked. When all the layers came together.

00:04:04:06 - 00:04:10:12
Itamar Marani
Yeah. It's like that whole, you know, we all want to grow, but we don't want to feel stupid and instead, accessible. It comes together.

00:04:10:14 - 00:04:13:02
Alan Gould
Yeah. I want to grow this weird thing.

00:04:13:04 - 00:04:36:06
Itamar Marani
Yeah. I don't want to feel bad about growing. I just want it to all be rainbows and sunshine. Yeah, exactly. It's this weird thing where what I've noticed is that when we're being very efficient, it feels really good. But often when we're actually being very effective, it feels very confusing. Because in order to be effective, we have to be able to sit in some ambiguity for a while and say, what is the actual thing we need to be doing?

00:04:36:07 - 00:04:50:18
Itamar Marani
And that feels scary because it feels like how you're saying a lack of control, like, okay, I'm not really sure what to do right now. I'm not doing anything. Something wrong here? However, it's it's the thing that needs to be done. It's just very uncomfortable.

00:04:50:20 - 00:05:13:06
Alan Gould
Yeah. Yeah. I still remember when you told me, like, sit with it. Be uncomfortable with it. Don't don't weasel your way out of it. Don't go back to what you know. Don't go back to feeling competent. Yeah. Well, again, I, I would have loved to have done that first time around, but I just wasn't there yet.

00:05:13:07 - 00:05:20:09
Alan Gould
I had too many other things that I needed to iron out a second time round. That's when it really sunk in for me.

00:05:20:11 - 00:05:31:21
Itamar Marani
So this is a bit of an odd question for you, but what do you think? I could have done better on my end to help you get to that? The first go around?

00:05:31:23 - 00:06:06:21
Alan Gould
You know, I'm not sure that you could, because I had developed a certain mindset, a certain way of operating where I was a one man army. I took too much pride in everything that I did. So when I came out of the first time through the arena coaching program, I was really happy with sort of crushing that, that mindset, replacing it with an executive level mindset.

00:06:06:23 - 00:06:29:21
Alan Gould
I don't think that that message would have come through. So I don't hold you to that. And I don't know that you could have effectively gotten through to me. I think it was a matter of, you know, once the student is willing, you know, the teacher will reappear. I, yeah, I needed to go through those changes.

00:06:29:23 - 00:06:56:16
Alan Gould
I had to make a lot of changes within my portfolio as well. And other companies and and realize what was lacking that they all required. The personal growth was only once I'd gone through that personal growth and really stopped operating on, on an upright level in my portfolio and actually elevated myself to be a portfolio CEO. And let me think of my portfolio like a portfolio, not just as, hey, where can Elon come in and operate in his own genius here?

00:06:56:16 - 00:07:27:12
Alan Gould
But it was like, does this company serve me? Does this business partnership serve me? Am I giving the most support I can possibly give to my business partner, or am I checking out and leaving that that problem to them? That that's why I sort of say, like I needed to have that shift. But then it was when I got stuck back in that operator mode, despite the executive level thinking that was taking place, that that's where you kind of got me out of my own head.

00:07:27:12 - 00:07:29:04
Alan Gould
There.

00:07:29:06 - 00:07:42:03
Itamar Marani
Would it be accurate to say that we were able to shift the the first go around? We were able to shift. That's called thought patterns, but not the behavioral patterns. And the second time, because I thought patterns were clear, we had runway to actually change the behaviors.

00:07:42:05 - 00:08:01:18
Alan Gould
Yes, yes. Yeah. That's that's a fantastic way of putting it like the like like I said, I'm I'm as your book describes it, I'm the guy hardy guy. I'm the quintessential. Wow. I just ran into that brick wall and it didn't break. So I'm going to run to the harbor next time and see if I can break it down again.

00:08:01:19 - 00:08:08:20
Alan Gould
Rather than go headfirst. That's it. I can go around this wall. I can climb over it. Yeah, yeah, I'm like that.

00:08:08:22 - 00:08:19:02
Itamar Marani
So I want to actually dive into that, because one of the things you said after the second arena, as I said, this is become 95% easier. The business, everything 100%.

00:08:19:03 - 00:08:20:00
Alan Gould
Yeah.

00:08:20:02 - 00:08:24:13
Itamar Marani
Why why is that? Because like, I understand that, but I'd love to hear from your perspective.

00:08:24:15 - 00:08:27:08
Alan Gould
Yeah, it.

00:08:27:10 - 00:08:45:05
Alan Gould
Once I stopped looking at like, how can I fix everything? And there was also a little bit of pressure, like you call the pressure performance bell curve. I was putting so much pressure on myself to fix everything so that the first go, the arena sorted that out for me. But that. That's what, to your point of view earlier question.

00:08:45:05 - 00:09:10:06
Alan Gould
That's what enabled the second go round of the arena to the clear. My mind towards okay, if I know that this is happening, then why am I still coming into operate a mode? Why? Yeah. Why am I able to sit down and do a strategic review? For me, it was every Monday morning I set two hours aside to review, the week before and the week ahead.

00:09:10:08 - 00:09:31:14
Alan Gould
Because I, because I was finally able to leave weekends clean and not work, not think on weekends about business, just be present with my family. But yeah, it just just kept defaulting back into it. So it was you that that that's where I needed you to pull me out. To point out where, I basically are still failing.

00:09:31:14 - 00:09:53:16
Alan Gould
I was still failing in my goal once I could see that, then I could go, well, why am I doing this? The 95% easy it came from all is like still putting my head down. When it came time to do what I still putting my head down and still charging towards a brick wall instead of going hang on, is this actually the way to achieve my goals now?

00:09:53:16 - 00:10:16:02
Alan Gould
You would think, you would think that would be something that a strategy consultant would say right from the start, but but I wasn't able to because I had all this other stuff in the way that I had to get rid of. Once that was all clear, that's when all of a sudden the mist clears, the fog clears, and you're able to go, hang on, is this really the path like it was only once?

00:10:16:02 - 00:10:45:03
Alan Gould
All that stuff, it clears that I could actually ascertain. Oh, I know I've structured this business based around, What what the common, you know, business matter is this is this is the ideal business model. So I was trying to build a SAS. All my experience, all my business, winds had been in, consulting and working with and for agencies, running agencies that that doesn't translate to SAS marketing.

00:10:45:05 - 00:10:53:20
Alan Gould
That wasn't clear to me until I was able to pull myself out of the weeds and elevate up to executive thinking.

00:10:53:22 - 00:11:09:09
Itamar Marani
So I think that wasn't clear to you. Like, there's obviously the emotional aspect that we all crave certain things. But what do you think pulled you or attracted you to a business model that quote unquote looked ideal but wasn't ideal for you?

00:11:09:11 - 00:11:36:11
Alan Gould
So. The biggest learning for me, which it still sounds weird to say, but, the biggest learning for me in the first go the arena was, was actually learning what vulnerability meant. I've heard about it, I've heard about gratitude and all these sorts of things. But it didn't didn't resonate with me until going through the arena and talking to people about how I talked before versus how I talked after.

00:11:36:13 - 00:12:02:05
Alan Gould
All of a sudden people were saying to me like, I, I always felt like I was in your way or that like I wasn't getting the full story. It's like totally caught me off guard because I thought I was really good at explaining the vision, explaining what we're working on. And what I need someone to do, as a contractor, as an employee or whomever, to help us achieve our goal.

00:12:02:07 - 00:12:16:03
Alan Gould
I was terrible at it. It turned out because I was just trying to figure out now, what is Alan's job? What is our need to get done? Okay, I'm going to structure you. I'm going to give you something to do so you can go do it. But but really, I know I'm going to have to do that.

00:12:16:05 - 00:12:34:07
Alan Gould
That's where I was getting caught, and that's where I was getting stuck in my own head. It was only once I'd got that out of the way when once I'd stopped thinking like that and behaving like that, that I was able to move forward. Does it does that make sense?

00:12:34:09 - 00:12:37:11
Itamar Marani
It does. Can I can I say it in a bit of a different way to see if it resonates with you?

00:12:37:16 - 00:12:40:05
Alan Gould
Please. Yet as you always do.

00:12:40:06 - 00:12:58:13
Itamar Marani
This, I think you knew the field, but you didn't know yourself as the player. And because you didn't have both those components locked in and created the challenge. Like there's a quote I love by, Sun Tzu, I just looked it up from the Art of War. It says that if you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of 100 battles.

00:12:58:15 - 00:13:15:00
Itamar Marani
If you know yourself. But not the enemy, for every victory game you will also suffer defeat. And if you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle. And I feel like a lot of times you're in that middle ground that if you know yourself, yeah, that it's that enemy within, like you were able to still win.

00:13:15:02 - 00:13:18:02
Itamar Marani
But there was also a price that came with it every single time.

00:13:18:07 - 00:13:43:16
Alan Gould
Absolutely. Yeah. And the price was what I was getting sick and tired of. Like I was sick and tired of repetitive burnout. You know, even ending up in hospital, in extreme cases, which, which completely caught me out of left field and again, the reason I said the vulnerability is because I was only looking at what I could do as me, as a player.

00:13:43:16 - 00:14:04:09
Alan Gould
What can I do on the field to win this game when when it's a team game that ultimately I'm playing. So, stop playing like rugby was my passion, you know? That was my sport. A star player can't. Can't win. For a rugby team, you need the team to work together cohesively to get to the goal.

00:14:04:11 - 00:14:28:21
Alan Gould
And that's where I was. The. I was the guy always running ahead. Look at me. Look at me. And then I'd. I'd lose the ball because I'd go too far. I'd run away from my support. That's the feedback that I was able to get. And once I recognized that, once I understood how I wasn't using the team to help us all move forward together, that I was trying to drag the team kicking and screaming and that honestly, that was my mindset.

00:14:29:00 - 00:14:48:05
Alan Gould
But before doing arena one and two was, I was stuck in that mindset of like, if it is to be, it is to me. Someone told me that quote, they were actually trying to to use it as like an example of a negative thinking. Yeah, yeah. You know, I would, I would know. No, but exactly, exactly. And they were like, oh no, no, no, not like that.

00:14:48:05 - 00:15:09:06
Alan Gould
But yeah, yeah. So now I have a better understanding of my skills and, and frankly, my weaknesses, I think it's yeah, not only helped me to see the game, but actually to see, you know, where do I actually play. Because like I said, I know I can break the line and run ahead, but I'll run too far and I'll lose the pole every time.

00:15:09:08 - 00:15:31:21
Itamar Marani
So yeah, it was so this past Friday, I did a training for a couple of entrepreneurs or the group of seven people, and literally all of them had of these nine figure companies. And one of the guys who had a I think there were like 300. And he kept asking me throughout the workshop, like, how do I just, like, hold myself accountable for or how can I just, like, not have to have someone push me?

00:15:31:21 - 00:15:50:10
Itamar Marani
And I just like always have push and always motivate? And finally, by the end of the workshop, I was like, you have to let go of the self-reliance thing. It's like, what do you mean? Like self reliance is a means? It is not an end. Like if you are trying to conquer like go up Everest, get the Sherpa, get oxygen bottles, get everything you could possibly need to help you up.

00:15:50:10 - 00:16:06:17
Itamar Marani
It. And I think there's a lot of times it's an emotional thing. It's an ego. Yeah, where we want to feel like we are self-reliant and we can figure it all out ourselves or do it all ourselves. But in reality, it's never the advice you would give somebody else. Yeah, that 100% are your weaknesses. Get someone to help you with that.

00:16:06:17 - 00:16:19:09
Itamar Marani
And again, I'm guilty of that too. We all are. But it's such an interesting thing that whole, like, this is what I noticed in you. A lot of it was that there's a certain feeling of pride with being very self-reliant.

00:16:19:11 - 00:16:19:23
Alan Gould
Yeah.

00:16:20:00 - 00:16:22:15
Itamar Marani
However, it is absolutely not effective.

00:16:22:17 - 00:16:22:23
Alan Gould
Yeah.

00:16:22:23 - 00:16:24:06
Itamar Marani
In accomplishing your goal. Complete.

00:16:24:06 - 00:16:27:21
Alan Gould
Completely misguided. Completely misguided. Yeah.

00:16:27:23 - 00:16:36:14
Itamar Marani
Yeah. It's one of those things that can be a good thing. But when you start optimizing for that, that's when you actually really start stunting your growth.

00:16:36:16 - 00:17:06:09
Alan Gould
I, I've actually done, some kind of like, professional development, stuff a few years ago before I met you, and it was really good, but it left me feeling hollow. It used, LSI techniques, which is like an academic base I don't like. I don't like quasi science or, like, real, you know, science. So this thing, had a 360 review and everything, and it basically broke down your management style.

00:17:06:11 - 00:17:24:14
Alan Gould
And, and one of the things that came out of that was that, yeah, you like you you take too much pride in doing all the work and not in your team achieving the outcome. And I was really disappointed because that's where it stopped. And I was like, cool, we've got a problem diagnosis now, what do they do?

00:17:24:14 - 00:18:06:16
Alan Gould
And they're like, so work on it. And I'm like, oh, well thank you. So yeah, I'd forgotten about that until I started the arena and, you know, did some of the workshops and had to think through some stuff. And, and I thought of all the projects like, yeah, I fell into this pattern because, throughout my career, like 25 years of being, a consultant in a gunfire project off the project, client side, my side with my team, contractors, third parties, failing time and time again to deliver what they said when they would say it.

00:18:06:18 - 00:18:32:13
Alan Gould
And that was something I was raised like, I was raised very heavily that if you, you know, you say what you do, you do what you say, basically. And so when I'm working on these project teams, even when I was a junior, right through to when I was, you know, a program, program manager, seeing someone not deliver something, whether it be CSS on a website or failed to deliver a graphic design or something, I would just parachuting and save the day.

00:18:32:13 - 00:18:48:07
Alan Gould
And and the irony is, is in, in corporate in in consulting, you get rewarded with that. You're the hero. Yeah. Day to day. And what to do. It just reinforces this, this terrible ego that I had of, I'm it's something I do.

00:18:48:12 - 00:19:07:12
Itamar Marani
It's an emotional reward. It's an emotional reward. And I get I think this is really important to separate. There's a difference between emotional rewards. Rewards and real world rewards. And often, if we're not vigilant, we always get a track of the emotional. So just easier. They feel better because deluded feelings, but long term they usually have a negative effect.

00:19:07:14 - 00:19:10:21
Alan Gould
Yeah, yeah. Then they were caught up with me. Yeah.

00:19:10:23 - 00:19:13:16
Itamar Marani
What made me want to go? Sorry. Go ahead.

00:19:13:18 - 00:19:36:13
Alan Gould
I was just going to say like, what made me, like, very financially successful as a consultant and, known down for hire and agency land, because I, this guy will literally not let a project file go over time or over budget. Yeah, it it it was an absolute anchor and a handbrake at the same time. My personal growth and on my company growth.

00:19:36:15 - 00:19:38:04
Alan Gould
Yeah. So.

00:19:38:06 - 00:19:46:05
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So I want to go back a little bit, though, to what you were saying from that program where you said this is your management style, this is the problem. You know, okay. But what do we do about it?

00:19:46:07 - 00:19:47:14
Alan Gould
Yeah.

00:19:47:16 - 00:20:04:21
Itamar Marani
Now and I, I'm going to assume a lot of people listening to this, they're going to empathize with that. They're like, I have been there where someone says this is your problem. And then I'm like, all right, I'm stuck. And it doesn't help. Yeah, but I do want to challenge that. I have found that we usually have the answers once we're able to get out of our own head.

00:20:04:23 - 00:20:23:12
Itamar Marani
And it is shocking. I think even if we went back to that time and all I did was sit with you in a room and I said, Alan, okay, don't think about what you should do, but let's just imagine there's somebody else in a similar situation with your business that needed to change and actually focus more on the leadership, not in doing it themselves.

00:20:23:13 - 00:20:34:12
Itamar Marani
What will you say? Certain. Yeah. That person, that exact exercise. We always do. Yeah. What would they do? I was assuming you would to be able to come out with perhaps 90% clarity and a lot of progress.

00:20:34:14 - 00:20:57:01
Alan Gould
Yeah, yeah, it if I'd known that technique back in the day, I would like to have, you know, I'd like to think I'd be further along. Absolutely. It I, I struggle with it like in, in arena v1. Like I actually struggled to get out of my own head and let myself think like that. The trick for me.

00:20:57:01 - 00:20:58:07
Alan Gould
Why do you think that is?

00:20:58:09 - 00:20:59:19
Itamar Marani
Well, the program that.

00:20:59:21 - 00:21:18:21
Alan Gould
I don't know why that the trick for me was to just turn it into, like a role play, like, okay, I'm back consulting again. I'm trying to deliver a system for this client. This client has this problem. What do I need to do to help them break through that? So I can so I can go ahead and deliver this project, and then all of a sudden, it all it'll clicked in.

00:21:18:23 - 00:21:34:00
Alan Gould
Now I'm able to just go, okay, you got a person. This is the scenario. This is the problem. What should they do? And I'm able to remove myself. But, it was something I found, like, strangely challenging. No idea why, but. Yeah.

00:21:34:01 - 00:21:35:04
Itamar Marani
Interesting. But you're saying.

00:21:35:04 - 00:21:37:00
Alan Gould
That.

00:21:37:02 - 00:21:54:16
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So. But before that, the people at home, for example, that haven't done the program, haven't stuck with it yet. So you're saying that the big thing is that what's helped you with that? You added more color to this instead of as being a principal level? Imagine there was someone else you just imagined. Okay, there's an individual following me.

00:21:54:16 - 00:22:04:05
Itamar Marani
This is how they look. This is how they behave. I'm sitting across the table from them. Absolutely. And when you were put more into that kind of like scene, that's when you were able to do this. Is that accurate?

00:22:04:07 - 00:22:23:23
Alan Gould
Absolutely. And, at a workshop I attended, that you did recently with your book launch and you walk through your latest iteration of person X, where you said, okay, there's a CEO that came on that, that taking over your company. By the way, they're overweight. They drink too much, they smoke too much, they vape too much.

00:22:24:01 - 00:22:40:14
Alan Gould
They stay up too late. They don't go to the gym. Oh, they just had twins, you know, like. And guess what, I. Yeah, I literally could not believe the mental, block that that, but that did for me as well. I had to get out my phone and write down a heap of notes like one, two, three.

00:22:40:14 - 00:23:06:09
Alan Gould
These are the three things they did. And and to your point, like what? Three things I've known for ages that they're, they're called tenants. All of the business, that I need to do. But wasn't doing them that that clicked, that was this like, okay, there's there's no excuse now that why these things shouldn't be done. Like, if this terrible CEO can do it, I can do.

00:23:06:11 - 00:23:16:21
Itamar Marani
Yeah. I think it's something that I had to learn that, like, how can we get people to not be able to psychologically justify why they can't do something? And he is.

00:23:17:01 - 00:23:37:12
Alan Gould
You're not wrong. Because I'm. I'm a master of psychological justification. So that that's what you're being able to help me so much is to, frankly, cut through the crap like you, I can twist and turn and I, I think it's too many years of doing agency sales, to get too good at picturing. And I started to pitch it myself.

00:23:37:18 - 00:23:47:07
Alan Gould
So it was it was tremendously helpful to be in the program and have you to just call it out. Respectfully, of course. Always. Yeah.

00:23:47:09 - 00:24:04:11
Itamar Marani
The question for you, we we just talk before we started recording that you were at a conference the other week. Yeah. How do you now, in turn do this for other people? Because I'm sure you tell you to other people. So. Like what? What have you seen be successful for you. What, are you trying to help someone out?

00:24:04:11 - 00:24:07:12
Itamar Marani
And you can obviously see that they're on their own.

00:24:07:14 - 00:24:29:00
Alan Gould
Absolutely. The number one thing, it's such a small thing that the number one thing I have learned from you, and I use it just about daily, is your line of, can I challenge you on that? So instead of it like, old school consulting, you know, I'm just so used, I guess I've seen this pattern before. Here's what you need to do.

00:24:29:02 - 00:24:52:15
Alan Gould
Just, like, put the hat on and deliver the solution. And then you watch someone take it or leave it. But it's just like you could just tell. Is is water off a duck's back? That trick of of stopping someone, of asking for their permission. Like, suddenly you see the lights turn on, they're receptive to the idea, and then you watch it land differently.

00:24:52:17 - 00:24:57:18
Alan Gould
Yeah, that's been amazing. And hey, I even use it in sales to that.

00:24:57:20 - 00:25:18:07
Itamar Marani
So, I'll break it down because I think there's a lot of there's a couple principles at play here. Yeah. One, it's that whole the Socratic approach of true understanding will only come from self realization that we can't tell someone something we have that you was like, just get just an inch from the finish line so they can be like, I had that epiphany and that's when it lands.

00:25:18:09 - 00:25:34:14
Itamar Marani
And two, it's just recognizing people don't like to be challenged. Nobody likes to be challenged. Even all the people that, like they say they want to, they know they want it and they know it's the norm for their growth. They're still a part of them. That is an ego. And that's the thing that we need to work around.

00:25:34:16 - 00:25:44:20
Itamar Marani
And whenever we tell someone, hey, this is what you should do or where you're wrong, it's an attack. It's an attack on their beliefs. It's an attack on the process. And all of a sudden it's me against them.

00:25:44:22 - 00:25:45:07
Alan Gould
Yes.

00:25:45:07 - 00:26:05:14
Itamar Marani
The moment though, we say, and again, there's different. I'm sure you've experienced the different. Here's where I go through this. Can I tell you. Oh, you have your permission to be honest with you. Would you be open to me challenging something with how you're thinking? It's about just creating a frame where they feel like, okay, this person isn't trying to challenge me.

00:26:05:16 - 00:26:16:03
Itamar Marani
They're trying to help me figure out something that I might be thinking about incorrectly, and that gives the permission for them to actually say, okay, maybe I'm open to thinking about something differently.

00:26:16:05 - 00:26:34:19
Alan Gould
So for me, it's like, you know, the old saying that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink it. It's like actually asking the horse, hey, are you thirsty? Yeah. All of a sudden they're like, you know what? Like, look, this water right here I am thirsty. So yeah, it's it's been really useful.

00:26:34:19 - 00:26:59:04
Alan Gould
And like you say, like, oh, we're entrepreneurs. We we know what we're doing. We know what we need to do, but but there's stuff in the way so that that's the other part, like asking that or not asking that, but leaving people to come up with the idea themselves. That's been the big thing. In, in my capacity as a manager.

00:26:59:06 - 00:27:04:07
Itamar Marani
I was going to leave. Was that like, how are you taking this into your, your business as well? Not just with other friends.

00:27:04:09 - 00:27:30:06
Alan Gould
Yeah. And again, it's like it's kind of that ego thing from from being like, you know, the hero of the project, like, and, and all the kudos that you get for that. And, and look, let's face it, in my circumstance, that was, referrals were my business. So that really helped me financially. And in business, you know, to be known as the this guy makes, makes these technical projects happen.

00:27:30:07 - 00:27:50:12
Alan Gould
So that means when you're in a management capacity, you're like, hey, I'm the expert here. I know all the answers, so I'm going to tell you what to do. You naturally shut down your contract, your employee, even client side teams, you shut them down because they're like, oh, okay. You put them in this scenario where they know that you're not receptive.

00:27:50:14 - 00:28:12:02
Alan Gould
You know, you're actually giving a directive. So by eliminating that from my work from instead being like my first port of call is like, okay, this is what I think the objective is. Do you agree? It's like straight away I brought them in. I'm on board. Rather than going cool. This is the objective. This is what we're going to do to achieve it.

00:28:12:04 - 00:28:15:06
Alan Gould
So it's very strange.

00:28:15:07 - 00:28:17:12
Itamar Marani
Can I offer an add on to that and upgrade, please?

00:28:17:12 - 00:28:22:02
Alan Gould
Yeah, yeah.

00:28:22:04 - 00:28:40:23
Itamar Marani
We have to align to people's incentives. So one of the things that I have found to be very effective and galvanizing people together is even when I'm offering a solution, is not to even get them to agree on the solution, to say, okay, this is what you're trying to achieve, correct? This is the goal. What they've stated before.

00:28:41:01 - 00:29:00:01
Itamar Marani
And it's funny because just by me stating that they already feel like, okay, this guy gets it, he's already thinking about me, not himself. Very great. So I've from what I've seen, the easiest way to get you guys through here is by doing X, and by simply using that frame and saying those things, it's amazing how much everything kind of adds up.

00:29:00:03 - 00:29:10:20
Itamar Marani
Saying like, this is what you want, right? Great. From what you're saying, this is what you want. This is how I think we can get there, how much of a difference it makes, instead of just saying, this is the thing I think we should do.

00:29:10:22 - 00:29:31:08
Alan Gould
And and that's where I was super guilty because it was a week. It was. This is how you can get me there. Yeah. So it's it again. These are things that I never thought were a problem. But they were the things holding me back. So that was the eye opener.

00:29:31:10 - 00:29:43:19
Itamar Marani
Come on. So first off, I appreciate you coming on the pod today. Is there any thing that you want to bring up you feel like we didn't bring up? But this is monumental or important or something that you kind of want to say.

00:29:43:21 - 00:30:06:03
Alan Gould
I think for me, at the end of the program, the thing that was the best like was the mental clarity that I had about the steps I had to take going forward. All the background chatter, all the if parts are maybes, they're all gone. It was all just no questions. Don't need any more help. I just need to get to execution.

00:30:06:03 - 00:30:10:11
Alan Gould
Now, that that was the best outcome for me.

00:30:10:13 - 00:30:24:12
Itamar Marani
Yeah. And I think a big part of it is that we talked again a little bit about this off air, about how vulnerability and like, things that you mentioned or so on can feel very fluffy and can turn people off.

00:30:24:14 - 00:30:25:13
Alan Gould
Yeah.

00:30:25:15 - 00:30:49:22
Itamar Marani
But the reality is that it's, the book. It's not the goal. The goal isn't to be vulnerable. And then, you know, be in a singing circle and I'll hold hands and come back. It is kind of just a part of the path, and it could be taken on a very pragmatic level. There needs to be a vulnerable exposure of our faulty thinking patterns or fears or concerns in order to be able to say, okay, this is what needs to get addressed.

00:30:49:22 - 00:30:54:08
Itamar Marani
And therefore, after we figure this out, we can now really move forward, which is the goal.

00:30:54:10 - 00:31:23:04
Alan Gould
And on the faulty thinking patterns, I realized, like for 40 years of my life, I was looking at, feelings and emotions as these things that I needed to turn off to be able to achieve my goals. So in business like you're tired, you know, so, like, the projects are going to get done, push you to 3:00 in the morning and wake up at five, the usual wake up because that's what's got to be done.

00:31:23:06 - 00:31:44:22
Alan Gould
You know, don't listen to your body when it's complaining and saying no. Like you actually need this day off. The vulnerability for me was actually realizing the lesson that you were teaching me was like, feelings and emotions aren't something like, especially anger at someone not doing something the way that you wanted it done. Like it's redirection.

00:31:45:00 - 00:32:05:04
Alan Gould
It's like referred pain in your knee when it's really you hip. That's the problem. It was the wakeup call for me that, I'm actually turning off a sense, and now I make better decisions. I have less if, but to. Maybe because I can tap into. How am I feeling about this? Why? Why am I anxious about this?

00:32:05:04 - 00:32:23:15
Alan Gould
So why am I angry about this? Since, I'm angry about this because I knew this was a problem, but I was rushed and I didn't take the time to give proper instructions. That's why I'm angry. So now I know what I need to do. I need to reframe the instructions around this and make sure that we're working in the right direction.

00:32:23:17 - 00:32:26:20
Alan Gould
So yeah, again. Yeah. Can't thank you enough for your help.

00:32:26:20 - 00:32:36:22
Itamar Marani
Their pleasure. And just to add a little ripple to that, first, I think we said it's great. And we need to recognize our emotions. They have a signal something often.

00:32:37:00 - 00:32:37:12
Alan Gould


00:32:37:14 - 00:32:51:09
Itamar Marani
Now is there a time to suppress them. Absolutely. That's the first thing. There is a time. It's like it's like how you said your knee hurts but your, you know at kilometer 35 of the marathon it'll be all right. You go through it.

00:32:51:11 - 00:32:51:20
Alan Gould
Yeah.

00:32:52:01 - 00:33:08:20
Itamar Marani
But it's, it's thinking about it. Is this an acute period of stress where we have a giant launch that we do once a year or a giant higher that we're making? And hopefully, like I said, the comforter for the next three years. And I just got to push through and it's difficult. Or is it this chronically how it is?

00:33:08:22 - 00:33:25:05
Itamar Marani
Because if it's chronically, how it is, and I just try to suppress the signals that something is off, like how you said earlier, like we end up hitting burnout and I've seen this a lot with people that almost get hospitalized because this, this whole system just crashes because you're not willing to listen to how you said a really well, those signals.

00:33:25:07 - 00:33:43:05
Itamar Marani
And so I think it's just being aware that, yes, you don't have to become an emotionally, you know, untuned, super feeler or whatever it may be, but you just got to know how to listen to it, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's the thing, a lot of people are afraid. There's a fear that if I start listening to my emotions and then I solve.

00:33:43:07 - 00:34:02:12
Itamar Marani
But the reality is going to make you more effective because you don't have to all of a sudden be an emotional mess. You can just recognize, okay, these are cognitive signals that are not we get clear on how to interpret. So instead of being something that I know what the solution is, I'm like, I feel angry, I feel anxious, but okay, just figure out why is that?

00:34:02:13 - 00:34:11:04
Itamar Marani
What's the pattern here? What is the root cause. And then fix it. And then also recognize you're still going to have the ability to honestly at times tune it out when you need to tune it out.

00:34:11:06 - 00:34:44:21
Alan Gould
Yeah. But for me, the the biggest impact that had immediately immediately after the arena was I was sitting in a particular business meeting, I was, addressing an issue in the company, and I got the usual line that I always get back, which up until that point, I'd just been shrugging off. The reason I've been shrugging off is because it was a complete, not a cop out from from an employee, and I didn't feel that I could actually pull on the thread.

00:34:45:03 - 00:35:04:18
Alan Gould
I didn't feel that I could dig deeper because I would explode. So the only way that I could give feedback to this employee about this particular problem, this ongoing problem, was by losing it. So therefore I suppressed those emotions. I kept my mouth shut and I put up with it, knowing that one day is going to happen. One day I'm going to snap.

00:35:04:19 - 00:35:30:03
Alan Gould
And then, I remember talking to you about this particular issue and you telling me to give myself permission to listen to the emotion, okay? To listen to the feedback. What's it telling me? Go beyond the anger, sit with the anger and then listen to what's behind the anger. And I was shrugging off. So what? Like I kept on saying, so what?

00:35:30:03 - 00:35:54:23
Alan Gould
And you were like, no, no, no, that's it's not that. It's okay. And you need to, push it to the side. It's the you need to recognize that this is a significant issue. You're not happy with it and it doesn't marry up to standards, etc., etc., and I need to the the big win for me was how you said I need to give myself permission to voice it and, you know, not yell and scream, but just voice that this is not okay.

00:35:55:00 - 00:36:21:08
Alan Gould
This is not me. My standard. Yeah. That's all I had to do. And and the day that I did that and seeing the result, like seeing the pattern finally broken and, you know, performance improving and things like that, that was just like how if I kept my mouth shut for so long, and how have I not listened to those, feelings, emotions being vulnerable?

00:36:21:10 - 00:36:23:12
Alan Gould
So you can have a huge. Yeah.

00:36:23:12 - 00:36:47:23
Itamar Marani
At least what I've noticed in a lot of clients, but also in myself, is that oftentimes when we're not 100% clear on exactly what the feedback needs to be, we're hesitant. And it and it's a and it's interesting. But what I've noticed is that you can also like I said give yourself permission. Just give yourself permission to say something here is off.

00:36:48:01 - 00:37:06:20
Itamar Marani
I can tell right now this isn't up to standard. I can't explain to you exactly why, which honestly, it's difficult to say that because we want to feel authoritative and say this is exactly why it's not up to standard. So you can't refute me and I am in the right. But it's also okay. An employee like this. Yeah, all of us and I think this was for me a big breakthrough as well.

00:37:06:20 - 00:37:24:08
Itamar Marani
Just be able to say, hey, this is not up to standard. I can't pinpoint exactly why by now, but something in the blink test is off. And the sooner we can do that, the paradox that the sooner we can do that, the less tension there's going to be in the conversation, and the less times that we've built in ourselves.

00:37:24:10 - 00:37:41:01
Itamar Marani
And instead of it coming across two months later as like a boiled up, I'm really upset. You need to fix this. Say, hey, something's just off here. I can't explain why I can't get my head around it, but like, this isn't your best work. And like, this needs to be fixed. Needs to be addressed. And it's about that permission.

00:37:41:03 - 00:38:06:01
Alan Gould
We already know that you don't attack the poor, you know, and attacks on the player have to attack the game. For me, the. You idiot, you just taught me how to actually go about that. You might, as someone who is prone to to, bursts of anger, shall we say. So rather than suppressing that, I was able to listen to that and take action, you know, and action that wasn't yelling and screaming at people.

00:38:06:01 - 00:38:32:12
Alan Gould
So win win. Yeah. I would like to say that, the material impact that going through the arena the first time around had on all of my relationships. So not not just business relationships, but also my personal relationships. I wasn't really prepared for that. I wasn't prepared for, that much personal growth to to put it bluntly.

00:38:32:14 - 00:38:59:16
Alan Gould
And when I talk to the guys at the, along meet ups, this is something that gets echoed time and time again. So, I think that any business owner, if you're not doing some level of personal and professional development, every year or so, you're going to stagnate, personally and professionally. So, yeah, I, I couldn't recommend this program enough.

00:38:59:21 - 00:39:06:00
Alan Gould
I think it ticks both boxes. And again, I'm, I'm very gracious to you. If you help.

00:39:06:02 - 00:39:17:15
Itamar Marani
Me appreciate it. Thank you very much for the kind words. Oh, pleasure. Go again. The I don't I want to say thank you very much for coming on. If anybody wants to find you, reach out. How can they get in touch?

00:39:17:17 - 00:39:31:01
Alan Gould
Yeah. So I run a company called Sales Pulse. We are a product call service agency for wholesalers and distributors. We help them spot, changes in customer behavior before it shows up in the numbers. So you can hit us up at Salesforce.com. Dot.

00:39:31:01 - 00:39:37:02
Itamar Marani
I also, and again, thank you very much for coming on and we will see you guys in the next episode.