Is Uncertainty Required for Internal Integrity and Happiness? w/ Max Hertan | Elite Performance Podcast #24

Itamar Marani 0:00
living a happy life isn't waiting for him to feel happy. It's living is a really active thing that you can take charge of. And by doing things that you're proud of, and living with a certain level of integrity, that's how you can say, okay, like, no matter how Emil said, the chaos around me, I can still be happy because I know I'm doing the right things, and I can be proud of myself. And that proud gives me peace of mind and that peace, like Naval said, like peace is happiness at rest, basically, it's kind of that.

Welcome to today's podcast, everyone. Today, we have Max Hertan with us, Max is one of my former one on one clients from back in 2020 2021. He is also very serial entrepreneur, he has an eight figure agency that's very successful, Megaphone Australia, UK, and I think the US now. And he's also the head of the YouTube channel, he has Max's monthly challenge and just the stuff he does in general about business, great guy, great stuff. And we're also here with Emil, and kind of funny story to start us off. Emil was the one that actually connected between me and Max. And this was a long, yeah, it was you remember that? That was long before you were a part of the program or the onboarding that Max, you posted in some Facebook group that I was not a part of, hey, I'm looking for someone to help me with some stuff. And Emil, you were suggested me. And that's kind of how it went from there. That's helped me next connected.

Max Hertan 1:11
And then we've gotten the full circle. Awesome. We have.

Itamar Marani 1:15
Alright, so first off, welcome, Max. And thank you for being here, man. Appreciate it.

Max Hertan 1:18
Thanks for having me.

Itamar Marani 1:21
Yeah. So the idea for this podcast come came about because you created a video for YouTube, it was very interesting about your experience with different coaches, and what worked for you and what didn't, and also have a link for this in the show notes somewhere. And I wanted to kind of talk about some of the stuff because some of it was very interesting. And it said that we said about how when our coaching process, it kind of changed some of your dynamics, we're already doing very, very well. And it helps you kind of also change the dynamics and be more intentional about how you want to succeed. That'd be accurate. Definitely. Great. So the first thing I want to really bring up is talking about starting things from a more intentional place, not from a day to day what I want to accomplish, but from a higher level. And I would love for you to share your opinion on this and how it started how it worked and what you found value from this,

Max Hertan 2:08
from working from us working together. No, from

Itamar Marani 2:11
the from you deconstructing? Because up until then correct me if I'm wrong, you're going about things like okay, I can be really, really efficient and do some things. Gotcha. And then you kind of took a step back and said, Okay, what I want to do from a high level.

Max Hertan 2:23
Gotcha. Yeah, I think. I think that having a mission that you're focusing on is incredibly impactful. And so I think it's like the spice of life, I think, motivation, Trump's tactics. And I think if you find a mission that you can stick to for a really long time, then you get the power of compounding. And compounding is like, you know, one of the eighth wonders of the world as Warren Buffett says, and so, but the problem with the wrong goal is, it might get you where you want to go. But if it's not aligned to your long term value is your identities that people that you admire all these things, then ultimately, you're going to achieve that goal. And then you might go in a different direction in different direction. And so the more intentionality that you can bring to your long term vision, your mission, and then making sure that ties into the person that you want to be. And then finally into like, your five year goals, your one year goals, your weekly habits, and everything like that, then you can take power of compounding. And I think the sooner that you can get that, even if it's a step backwards in the short term, in the long run in 10 years time when you get the power of compounding, it's such an advantage.

Itamar Marani 3:33
That's interesting that you said that it's a short, it's a step backwards, do you think that's what perhaps had stopped you from doing that earlier?

Max Hertan 3:42
I think I had a clear goal in my 20s. And it was like to achieve financial freedom by the time I was 30. And that was my exciting mission that never could go past 30. So it was always going to be a limited, expiring goal. But it felt really important to me, because I felt like that was a catalyst to create change in the world, and to have freedom to be an express myself in the way that I want in the world. So it felt like the mission felt really important, but and I'm happy that I got that. But then I think once I was achieving that goal, and I could see that that it was around the corner, then the next step was, well, what's next, you know, and I feel like I and probably a lot of people, probably a lot of people that listen to this podcast. Like if they know what to do, they want to know what to do so they can just run towards it. Because it's you can have energy you can be like I want to like make something in my life, but it can be hard to actually figure out what to do. And so I think like that was the thing that I was struggling with when we started working together, which was I was like well let me just double what we did last year and let's like try to like lift more weight and let's and like the goals was so arbitrary. I was like let me just find something to put on the board. But it didn't make sense. It didn't connect to a long term mission. And so I just wasn't like it. It was starting to I missions was starting to form but They weren't like off that deep resonance. And so that was the thing that I think, you know, we uncovered together and now it's something that I think so important.

Itamar Marani 5:09
Yeah, it's interesting. Go for it, please.

Max Hertan 5:12
I was just gonna say because, you know, I'm kind of coming in from the outside a little bit into this kind of interaction, because you guys did one to one. And just remind me, what was the question that you asked when I connected? You guys? Like, what was it that you were actually looking for? Can you remember?

Max Hertan 5:30
I think I was at a point where, you know, from listening to so many successful people, I know that coaching is like a powerful thing that all the best people in the world have. So I was like, aware that coaches were useful. And then I was like, wondering if I could feel I guess, more unstuck, I think out around 2930. I was like, incredibly happy as a 27 year old, 28 year old. And then as I started to achieve what I wanted, I actually started to feel depressed in some way. Because I didn't have like a mission. And so I think that that's what I was really looking for. I might have framed it in a different way. But I think deep down, that's what I was, like, hoping to find.

Max Hertan 6:12
And Itamar was that what like you, when you guys first connected? Is that what you kind of what what came to you? I'm just picture together is

Itamar Marani 6:24
what came to me as far as what the gap was?

Max Hertan 6:27
Well, yeah, what Max came to you saying, Hey, this is the the initial problem. I mean, we're gonna dig deep into it. But was that like, a surface level? Hey, I want help with this.

Itamar Marani 6:39
Yes, but not and I wasn't able to perceive it in such a clear way. So what I saw in front of me the first time we talked, I remember he was in, you were literally walking on your walking desk, like a treadmill underneath the desk. And it was very clear, okay, this is a very high performing individual. He's already very successful. And he wants to go to the next level, he just not sure kind of what it meant. Like, that's what I heard from you, it wasn't really clear, like, oh, I kind of lost my mission. So far, I've surpassed that it's kind of astronauts syndrome. As they say, that wasn't crystal clear to me. But it was very clear that he wanted to he was already doing really well. And he was open to getting better. That was very, very clear. And what I saw was what he wasn't really clear on exactly what that meant. Does that make sense?

Max Hertan 7:28
Yeah. Yeah. And then there's, I think the rest of the story continues from here now.

Itamar Marani 7:33
Yeah, I kind of want to take it back, though. A second. Because what Max said there was very interesting, I think a lot of people, they don't actually make the effort to stop and figure out what your mission is, instead of just doing more things. Because that requires a certain amount of time, when you're in an uncertain phase. There's some time we don't know exactly what to do. And that lack of certainty really jolts a lot of people. It's like, you have to sit with that discomfort for a while while you're searching. And not just being able to like kind of makes it like strap onto something get motivated and go. And I think that's what most people are not willing to do is to sit with that discomfort and recognize maybe it's okay for me to actually sit here. Especially with like, Max with your situation where you already gotten yourself to a financial vantage point where that was valid. It wasn't like you were struggling and had to do something. And I think most people deny them that opportunity to see further because they're not willing to sit with that discomfort. Does that make sense?

Max Hertan 8:25
Yeah, definitely.

Itamar Marani 8:27
Yeah, yeah. So, Max, like walk us through, madam. What was it that you figured out for yourself back then? And what is it right now and the high level thing, what you want to accomplish?

Max Hertan 8:39
I mean, I guess a key thing is, I need a mission. And, you know, something that's really stuck with me is picking a mission that you could be, like, doing for 20 years, and it can still resonate. And so I don't know if I had fully nailed it at the end of us working, but you know, but we have like a mission statement, you know, live every day with integrity and produce an output that I admire was like my mission statement. And that was something that I could start to think, okay, cool. Does this like, does this company does that actually align to this cool, I want to start like a personal training business with my PT or I want to, you know, do a PA business for people in LA, like I've, you know, I've always got a business idea. But then the question is, does this align to like, you know, I look at who, what are my exercises? Like, who do I admire? Like, what are the consistent traits about them? What is like my mission state as a person, what are my values? And then like, Is this even though this is fun and energizing, and so where I landed, is I want to basically incubate mission driven companies and use my personal brand to, to attract really high quality talent, money and customers. And so, potentially, every year off the back of a brand, you know, build a community of people that are It's like either entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs that want to build mission driven companies that believe entrepreneurship can change the world, share the knowledge that I get from building companies. And then every year launch a company and say, Hey, I need an operator to run this, Hey, we need a first employee, we need some customers win some money, and then use the channel as a way to like building public buildings that matter. That was kind of the mission. And why I liked that is it ties into, you know, my ideas of like, I like sharing ideas, I like to be philosophical. I like to have my ideas challenged in the public domain, I love building companies have more energy, like I constantly am thinking in business ideas, I want to be mission driven. It just align to a lot of things that kind of resonated with me. So that's where it's at. Currently, it might evolve, it might change, but that's fine. That's found a place where I'm like, That feels pretty good. Like, I can say that I'm like, actually, like, don't like, shutter. When I say my mission, you know, I'm like, that actually feels pretty good, like, and so now I got to figure out if I can execute on it,

Itamar Marani 11:03
and still open. Would it be accurate to say convincing, because from what I'm hearing, you have two missions, you have to let's call it main desires, you have the internal matter, like the internal mission, which is how you said to live every day, with full integrity improves the level of alpha you admire. Which, by the way, we've used as an example, in that arena, and a lot of people have gravitated towards that I think a couple of people have emulated your mission, your internal one love it. And yeah, and then you're saying this external thing, that's an external manifestation of that, which is interesting. You're saying first off, like you lock in the internal thing, and then that enables you to clarify what the external thing is, where in your 20s, it was primarily an external thing. And that's why you outlived it. Basically, I grew it. Because it's an external thing that wants to accomplish tick, the financial freedom. It's like, okay, I'm kind of lost what now. But this is an internal one that you can latch on to various external vehicles, so to speak, would that be accurate?

Max Hertan 11:55
Yes. And just as a random thought, I do look to people that are within their first business, and there, and it's not, it's infinite, you know, the business in the mission that they're generating. And I do think that these people have the opportunity to go so much further, you know, I'm not unhappy that I had that financial freedom goal. And it, it now has enabled me to do more of what I like. But I wonder if I had done this work, and had been clear on these things sooner, where that could have led me.

Itamar Marani 12:26
So you're basically saying that if you have an internal mission, there's no real ceiling to it. But if you have an external thing, then you kind of you're basically putting a ceiling onto yourself. Is that correct?

Max Hertan 12:36
Yep. That Yeah, well, I mean, I was gonna jump in earlier, but it's relevant now as well. That concept which you describe, where people often have an initial mission, which is potentially external, is relatively well documented, they talk about it in The Way of the Superior Man where they say, you kind of achieve something and then you have this last period. And actually, what you need to do is allow it to happen allow it to be you need to embrace it, and not try and fill it with bullshit. And they also talk about it in the second mountain, exactly the same, you climb the first mountain, which is some sort of material thing, some sort of arbitrary external validation thing, maybe. And then as you mature, you kind of come down. And then a lot of people have this kind of crisis in this point before they discover their second mountain, potentially, the first one is much more external, as we've described. And then the second one has both this internal and external, call it values and goal, call it maybe process and outcome goals. And as Itamar said, the process then lives on, because you can always live with integrity and a level of production that you're proud of. So that that will maybe even outlast the external goal.

Max Hertan 13:52
Yeah, definitely.

Itamar Marani 13:54
I do. This is my take. And I do think there is a necessity for that first mountain to be external from a programmatic perspective. It's talking I mean, it's I think so. No, saying but there's like, it's, it's not the right way to go about it. Like how I think it's the right thing first to get like a certain kind of like, it's called financial freedom, or whatever it may be. And I think this most people get stuck there. I do think it's the most pragmatic thing to do. Because first you get that you get a higher vantage point, then you have the more freedom, freedom of mind, freedom of resources, whatever it would be to think bigger and longer. But I do think it's like, it's, it's both are necessary. I think most people just get stuck in phase one. Yeah,

Max Hertan 14:31
I mean, I think a couple things. So one is like on my way to achieving one, I still have to find mission to make it meaningful. And our mission internally for megaphone is to be the best place in Australia to work because I just desperately didn't want a job. And I'm giving all these people a job and I just want them to like be super happy. And growth means more people that we can give ideally the best job of their life and we like measuring culture analytics, and it's something that I genuinely am really proud of, and I think it gives the company be more like heart and soul to what we're doing. But I wonder if, you know, I look at like someone that we all know, Rhian. And I wonder like, can you achieve both things at the same time? Can you find a company that gives you, you know, it elevates you out of, you know, whatever it is like to some level of freedom, that it also is aligned to a longer term mission. And I wonder if, you know, business one, I had thought deeper about this thing, I could have maybe built the personal brand alongside it, for example, or, you know, I could have been a few steps ahead, which would have allowed me to, like, leverage what we were doing potentially a little bit more, so I could have done both things at the same time. And so, I agree that level one still needs to be achieved, but I think it can be done in the way of level two. And I think if you do that, then that's, that's pretty powerful.

Itamar Marani 15:54
Yeah, that's a great point.

Max Hertan 15:57
I would add to that, if you were to look, you know, dig deep with Ryan, for example, on a podcast or similar, he probably had that initial external mission. But it was all within one business, it was maybe to become CEO of that business. And then he managed to come off the second off the first mountain and then found this internal purpose, because a business is an arbitrary container, right? It doesn't have to be the one business per mountain kind of thing. So yeah, I think if you examined it, you probably see the same pattern.

Max Hertan 16:30
And I also think that like, you know, if you look at Mark Zuckerberg, did he know that he wanted to connect all of humanity with Facebook? Or was it just an opportunity and like, he thought it was cool. And he was a programmer. Like, it's probably like 97%, likely that it was the second scenario. And so a lot of people I think, the Google guys like, they tried to sell their company straight away, and tried to sell it to like Yahoo for like 100k. And they didn't want it. So it's not like they had like a 50 year vision to become the biggest company in the world. It's accidental, often that it happens to align to your second mountain. But I think that the people that listen to this, or if you can tick both boxes sooner, then there's something pretty impactful and powerful that can happen.

Itamar Marani 17:13
And I can share from my personal experience, building this business that the first goal, I literally had the conversation with a couple of people, they interviewed me for some community. And they asked me, like, when you build the business, what was the mission, and I was like, my wife was about to get pregnant, and we need to make a lot of money to support that. That was the mission truth. But like, you know, as soon as that came about, then we were able to, like, grow beyond that, okay, this second think beyond my own survival, like my first circle, so to speak, and my family, and then really think about the bigger mission had that freedom to do it. And now a couple of people with this and all that. But honestly, at first it was that that was the first mountain. And it was great, because I was able to do it in a way that aligned towards me immediately going into a different direction, that better direction, bigger direction. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah,

Max Hertan 17:54
an interesting thing to add here, you know, talking your personal experience. So my first one was to, you know, initially become a doctor and leave medicine and make a certain amount of money achieved all of those. And I would argue that now I'm entirely between the two mountains with just a process goal of how I want to live each day. And without a outcome, bigger mission, like I'm living each day, you know, almost like, I'm just living, and I'm very content and happy. But I don't have a bigger thing. And I'm kind of waiting for it to manifest and appear, maybe that's the wrong way, maybe that's the right way. But it's certainly a very pleasant way to live a very contented my lack of direction.

Max Hertan 18:34
You know, and it took me three years to be able to articulate it just the way that I did just then. And, you know, it was on psychedelics when it crystallized, and it probably will change, but it took a long time. And there was a lot of like, experiment, mentation, coaching, being around people that I admire reading. And I think if you rush it, then it might not be right, you know, it has to really deeply resonate for a long period of time. So and if you're in a state of happiness, and enjoying life, the process and that's, that's a beautiful place to be. Yeah,

Itamar Marani 19:18
I think I kind of wrap this subject up, in my opinion, I think it just requires a certain level of courage, like a level of being willing to deal with that discomfort of uncertainty. I don't have somebody initially to go go go into especially as entrepreneurs like driven types, being able to sit with that discomfort and recognizing in order for me to be able to find the next bigger thing, this is going to be the price of admission to me to sit with this uncertainty not knowing exactly what I need to do and latch myself on to and go go go. I think really, if you're willing to pay that, that's the key. You hear that?

Max Hertan 19:50
Yeah, you know what I picked that up I did some mindset accelerator maybe 12 I can't remember what it's called the the the Colosseum or Sunday. For clarity Jokes aside, I did the arena. And that was almost, you know, I did a lot of other work. But that coincided pretty well. I mean, you know, you know what went on. And that was almost exactly that having the courage to not seek external validation and not drive, drive drive and go go go.

Itamar Marani 20:18
And what I want to say wages, because it's interesting what Emile saying about the arena and housing Max, you know. So Max and I started working together when I was pretty much just starting out and kind of putting my IP and my process together and so on. And one of the meals favorite parts of the arena was clarifying the mission down into values and rules, and to being able to like clarify what do you need to actually keep a track on. And what was interesting because when Max s are working together, we had not, I had not had thought of using it as an actual tracker and tracking in a week to week basis. Because there we go, let's kind of figure this out and go from there. And Max was came up with the suggestions that hey, what if we create a tracker, like an actual tracker, we can like click and like grade ourselves one to 10? And how am I keeping in line with these things, that if I get 10s on them, it's aligned to my mission thing that I really want. And I thought it was a very great thing to do. So I jumped on his idea. And we went with it. And I thought about it from a very pragmatic perspective, like, oh, this will help people accomplish what they want to accomplish. What was very surprising for me was when I saw you do a video about it, and I think you said it, it was mainly it made you happy. It gave you a lot of happiness. And I'd love to hear your perspective on this because that was exactly not the way I thought about it. Like the outcome I thought that would produce.

Max Hertan 21:35
Well, I guess, my tracker, I feel like you can kind of reverse reverse engineer the mission and the person that you want to be the qualities that you admire the people that you admire, the long term goals all down into, like weekly habits. And so assuming that you can follow these habits every week, then you should be on your path to becoming someone that you really admire. And like the sense of admiration in yourself, being an integrity to your values, building your self esteem, to me is like the highest correlated to happiness. And so the idea was that if you've set your tracker correctly, and you're getting 10s, then you should feel pretty internally good about yourself and happy as a result. And that's why at the end of it, I track my happiness. And I want to show myself that there's a high correlation between these things. And obviously things influence like bad sleep, you know, stress in the business, you know, relationship things, those can all influence happiness. Like it's not like a perfect Carlita. But like long term, it should be correlated. And if it's not, then maybe I need to adjust the tracker. That's kind of how I think about it.

Itamar Marani 22:43
I think what you said there's you said, it's something that's very, very interesting, because a big topic these days, like, how can I be more happy, and a lot of it is, people are saying, I want to feel this, I want to feel that I want to feel this. And you're taking a lot more responsibility for personal responsibility. Because the way you view happiness, saying, if I'm doing things that I'm proud of, I'm integrity with if I'm doing these outputs, then I can give myself permission to be happy with myself and happy with the world, so to speak. And it's a very, it's like I really like it. It's a very different approach than what most it's called, like, you know, self help, or whatever it may be is nowadays. I mean, if you want to jump into this, sorry, right.

Max Hertan 23:25
Now you go Emil.

Max Hertan 23:28
I didn't have anything specific. But you can see the cogs were in Itamar happiness is a very interesting topic. Like it's very hard to measure to gauge so I'd be super curious to know if it did correlate I assume it it assume it did. And I don't like the word happiness, it has these, you know, let's have a birthday party kind of connotations. But, you know, it's like, what is happiness? And for me part of happiness, I prefer the word contentedness or peace is being okay, when everything isn't positive and up and whatever else and maybe then you can still be aligned with your values and actually be content even if shits hitting the fan. So yeah, that was kind of what I was thinking. I didn't want to go off on a tangent during this podcast, because this is a whole different topic. But that's I've been thinking about that a lot.

Itamar Marani 24:18
But I think Max, I'd love to hear your opinion on Sorry, buddy. And this is I want to clarify this with with Emil. I feel like you're saying even if shit hits the fan, you can be happy because you're content with what you're doing, and how you're acting. And because of that, you have that control over it, so to speak. Would that be accurate? Yeah.

Max Hertan 24:37
Yeah, and, you know, that's kind of how I define happiness, like happiness is living in alignment with your values. And, you know, and being of self esteem, like, I don't look at it as like the fleeting moment of like, joy or like, you know, winning the lottery and things like that. I mean, more just, like, just how do you feel internally when you wake up like, do you feel like you know, Have subconscious and your conscious are in alignment, you feel like that you're proud about the person that you're becoming, do you feel like you're working towards a mission that feels like aligned to you, you know, those are the things that I think about with happiness. And when things do go wrong, like, you know, I've been having some health challenges this year and like my sleep spin off, and sometimes the tracker starts to drop, and I could feel it in myself. And then once I start to, like, put more mindfulness into it and go cool, cool, I'm, I am going to work harder on my eating, I'm also going to do the walking and the exercising, and I'm going to call my parents every week, and, you know, the little silly things. And then at the end of the week, I just feel prouder about myself. And, you know, it's just, you know, and I also, another interesting thing is, the more I'm on mission, and the more that I'm like living in alignment to my tracker, like, the easier life becomes, and it's like, almost hilarious. Like, I'll go to an event and people like chase me, like, Max, we gotta catch up, like, we need to start a business together, hey, can we pay you for this thing? I'm like, what, like, this wasn't happening, like a month ago. But there's just like, something in your energy. And, and I've people have kind of shared that with me, where they're like, you know, that was like, profound, you know, meeting you, I could just see, you're just so excited about life. And it's so excited about what you're doing, you have so much conviction. And that can happen when it's all in alignment. You know, you're just like, you're just losing confidence and excitement. And, and people like, I want that, like, and so they want to be around it. So yeah, there's something pretty cool that happens.

Itamar Marani 26:39
So often, what I find really interesting listen to you, and how your choice of vernacular and how it's different to you than most is, when you're saying like a living in aligned life. It's not just waiting for alignment to happen to me, like having a live life, it's living, it's an active thing that you're really putting intention into an effort into. And that's why it's getting that result. And I think most people here like living in alignment, happy life that like, oh, then I should just wake up and things should just be great and happy. And that should be easy. And it's just come to me. It's kind of like a passive. You know, I mean, passenger title is very different. And it's really cool how you're thinking about it. Like,

Max Hertan 27:15
yeah, you know, I think like, if you're like the most spiritual, spiritually advanced human in the world, then theoretically, you can be not using your conscious mind and just live in alignment with your subconscious. And your subconscious is taking, you know, it's, it's removed of the impulsivity that we've evolved with, and it's removed all of the traumas, and it's removed all of like the short term thinking, and it's just perfectly acting in alignment to the values. And theoretically, that's possible. But for me, it's not. So I have to use a balance of intuition and cognition to like, decision make, and I impulsively make bad decisions still, and I still have to check in for that. And emotionally, I'll be reactive sometimes. And I'll be like, This isn't right. And then the next day, I'm like, You know what, actually, it was like, I just was tired, or I just was hungry. And so I have to look into both to make decisions. And that's why I have to have some practice to like balance my decision making. Yeah,

Itamar Marani 28:11
I think it's spot on. I don't think it's like, I'll put it this way, I've never seen anybody is able to exactly know what they should be doing. And always have that top of mind. instinctually not a top of mind. But like instinctually, on a subconscious level, come out every time I just I haven't seen it. I don't think it's really possible. If you're trying to evolve as a human. If you're trying to stay exactly where you are, then that's what you're going to do. But if you do have a mission where you want to grow beyond your current version of yourself, and when I had this kind of internal evolution and growth, you have to have intentionality there. Because if you're otherwise, you would just already be there so to speak, you wouldn't have to do that growth with intentionality. And what's really interesting, when we did the tracker, we back then we only focused on like, what are the things you need to do the outputs? And what you're seeing right now, this isn't just because we've added this into the tracker later for the arena, where we figured out what are people's subconscious, negative subconscious polls? What are their main insecurities or main desires that can pull them in the wrong direction that they don't keep in check? And being really aware of like, what am I top things that could pull me away from what I intentionally know I should do? It's really powerful. Because it's kind of like, okay, when I go down this street, I can expect that this pothole was over here, and I can avoid it. And it's kind of like putting all that in a more flush direction. That's cool. So yeah, like how it also evolved since we worked together back in the day.

Max Hertan 29:30
Yeah, that is cool. Yeah, I'm a big believer in general of like, what you don't do is often more important than what you do.

Itamar Marani 29:41
How do you say what do you feel that way? And as far as the tracker, like this context, what do you mean by that?

Max Hertan 29:47
So for example, I don't watch YouTube TV, Netflix, video games, unless I'm in the company of friends. And I have you know, we worked actually, this was a big thing that we worked on. I forgot about this. I came into the was called and I said, I'm addicted to this video game Clash Royale and YouTube. And you're like, Okay, well, like why don't you just stop using it for the day and just use it after 7pm. I'm like, that doesn't work, wanting you to tell me to cut it from my life that I like. And I knew that that was the right decision intuitively, but I just haven't come to terms with it. And we tried a bunch of different systems. And ultimately, I was just like, okay, it was actually about 14 months ago that 15 months ago that I deleted, Clash Royale contacted the company, there's a video game I was obsessed with. And I contacted them, I'm like, delete my account, I don't want to ever have access to this account, because it was months of work in this account. And it was like this, it was this. It was this crazy turning point. And I can honestly pinpoint that that moment is one of the most significant moments in my life of the last few years in terms of like a positive turning point, where I just created this mental space to start doing more. So you know, I track steel on my tracker. And even though I get a ton every week, it's just like, Did I break that roll? Because like, you know, another one is like no caffeine or, you know, like, there might be just things I'm more curious than trying to be interesting. I'm, I'm more interested than being interesting. You know, that's an that's another example of like, I can sometimes find myself getting too excited and talking too much like I probably am this podcast. And I should ask more questions, because I already know what I think. So you know, that's another example of like, something that maybe I need to reinforce as a behavior that could benefit me.

Itamar Marani 31:35
Yeah, The Clash was a very interesting experience for me as a coach as well, do you mind if we dig into it a little bit, I can share my perspective, it was, I was struggling because I was like, I know he shouldn't be doing this. There's no way this is like build again, towards what he wants. And I remember because my challenge was you honestly, it was, you're an extremely talented individual. And you were able to get really good external results, despite doing something that wasn't serving you. Like on an on a holistic level, like Clash was in no way really moving you forward. But you were still able to get the results that you want it. And it was very challenging for me as somebody who wanted what's best for you to confront you with the truth that will say, okay, maybe I should stop doing this. And for like, our first I think it was first four or five sessions. I remember, like after each session, it would piss me off, because it's like, I'm not getting through to him. And I saw because he's not listening, because I haven't found an avenue to get through to him. But this doesn't serve Him. And finally, when we nailed in the internal mission of live every day with full integrity, increase the level of output I admire, I was like, hmm, you cannot do this and do this. And you're like, oh, yeah, that's right, I can't actually do that. And once you were able to really common like piece with that internal mission, then you recognize, okay, this is not fit anymore. And I will say this, like other people out there who are really high achieving, and just are able to honestly get away with certain bad habits. If you have an external mission, you might be able to get away with them. But what was really I think, very great about your internal mission is that it really forced you kind of see through that lens of is this actually going to do that? Internally, can I say I gave it my all I put it all out, but I admire full integrity. And for me, when we figured that out, it made coaching like you and helping you get to the next level, almost a downhill battle, because you could self motivate yourself because you have clarity on Okay, these are the things that I need to focus on. Does that make sense?

Max Hertan 33:25
Definitely. And, yeah, I mean, for me, part of integrity is like living in alignment with your professed values, but also your subconscious values. And if I saw someone playing video games daily, and there's nothing wrong with it, but I just didn't admire it. And so there was some element of myself where I wasn't admiring my own behavior. And if, like, other people can do it, and that's totally fine. But for me internally, for whatever reason, there was something in my inner monologue that just didn't feel good about myself. When I did it. I just felt a little like dirty. And I like, and there was kind of like a, I've noticed this like a five day window of like, once I remove like a dopamine addictive behavior, like video games like YouTube, Netflix, whatever it is. When my brands like, Oh, I've got a free minute, YouTube. I've got a free minute clash. Yeah. And then after five days, that just stops thinking about that. And so I used to think it's 20 minutes a day, it's 30 minutes a day, like, what's the big deal, but it's like two hours of like cognitive load, and it's like, hours of creativity. And it's like, you know, and it's like, showing up when you're with someone, it's like, are you interested in them? Are you just waiting to get to your phone again? So like, how am I actually showing up in the world? Am I interested in the people around me, I'm excited to socialize, I'm excited to do things. And so the flow on effect is so much more than the 20 minutes that you play. And I think that a lot of people, myself included, didn't realize how significant the flying effects were. And when I removed it, it was like, so obvious that I can't go back I love it like I miss it. It doesn't mean that I don't love it, it doesn't mean that it wasn't giving me value like I absolutely love it. I just think it's like a, a piece of mastery on gaming and an dopamine addiction. But I can't handle that. And it is

Itamar Marani 35:16
the it's just, it's not aligned with your internal mission. Exactly. Then the day, it's, it's that clear, I want to pull on that thread to kind of go in a different direction. Because once you locked in your internal mission, like it is really big thing that you're like, if something, I don't remember exactly how to say I don't want to say this the wrong way. But basically, if something isn't really smooth, if it requires too much effort, or there's too much friction in it, you're like, I don't want to do it. I want to find it, find a way around that be resourceful and figure out if there's another way to do it. Would that be accurate? Yep. And for me, that was really hard, honestly, on a personal level, because I also came from a personal background. So this is hard shit, you got to do hardship. And but it was also sorry, go for it.

Max Hertan 35:58
I remember a conversation we had. You and I were We were literally talking about you doing hardships. And you were doing it for the sake of doing hardships. And I was like, maybe there is a middle ground? Maybe you don't need to watch it for the sake of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. opposite extremes. Perhaps you too.

Itamar Marani 36:17
Exactly. Yeah. So what I absolutely didn't want to do is put my stuff onto you. But I also recognized that, I felt like you were leaving some stuff on the table. And it got to a place where we're saying, okay, like you have this really big mission. For example, I remember, there were a lot of stuff about conserve conservation for animals and all that kind of jazz. And we recognize, okay, some of the stuff that you want to accomplish, it's going to require you to do some hard things, like things that they will have friction on it, and it's not going to flow. And I would love for you to share kind of your process and how you were able to think in that video that I mentioned, you said like, Okay, I realize that some things are worth it, even though they're really gonna suck. And just kind of share your process around that.

Max Hertan 37:01
Yeah, yeah, I think my perspective was, and, and it has evolved a little bit, but there's some, there's a lot of this that remains, and maybe we can unpack that. But um, you know, there's that Bill Gates quotes, were just like, if you want something done, give it to the laziest person, you know, I am that laziest person or like, and so, I I obsess over efficiency, and I obsess over optimization, probably more than anyone that I've come across. And I just like love it. Like, I just love when something like is automated, like it's just, it's so satisfying for me. And I'll work really hard.

Itamar Marani 37:36
Can I jump in to give people context Max, like Max has, I think you have two charges on each side of your bed. So you don't have to actually like decide what side you're going to roll on to the bed to charge your phone. Like it's to that level of optimization in his house and everything.

Max Hertan 37:50
Exactly, like I just bought, I just replaced my shoes with shoes that I can step in without having to bend over. I just bought like an instant hot water so that I get like my hot water or like automatic for tea. Like I just you know, I love that, you know, that's just what I like, I don't know, it's like a weird hobby of mine. And so sometimes something that I want to do can't be automated. Or, for example, right now, I'm on a specific diet for my gut. And it takes a long time to cook these meals. And so I often just don't, and then I eat slowly Off Plan because I'm in the background, trying to find someone that can cook for me. I think like my perspective is I don't mind doing hard things, the hard, hard things, you know, I don't mind like running a marathon for the perspective of doing a marathon. But I hate doing things inefficiently when I feel like they could be done more effectively, to the point they can actually stop me from doing something that I should do, for example, just cooking the meals that I should eat for my gut. But in the background, I'm like speaking to as many chefs as I can, and you know, and now I'm going to, I've hired an EI that's found the chef because I realized that if I didn't, if I hired the chef, and then they quit, then I would have to go back to the drawing board. But if I had a static Ei, they could just continually replace the chef. And so it's taken me quite a while to solve this. And I'm still in the I'm getting a delivery on Thursday. So hopefully itself, but in the process I barely cooked. And so I think one of your challenges to me was like, You need a support your gut, just cook the food that you're meant to be eating. And that can be challenging for me, for whatever reason.

Itamar Marani 39:26
I think for me, my big thing was, let's not lose focus of what the actual goal is, like the optimization, the efficiency is a way to get you towards that goal. But it's not the goal in and of itself. And I felt like sometimes, and this is not just you, this is everybody, this kind of stuff we can get lost in that. Remembering that this is a pathway. It's not actually the goal. So it's like we can't fall in love with just this pathway. You know, I mean, sometimes people end up optimizing more for the pathway than the actual goal and that's what I felt sometimes would happen. Like you're denying yourself that you actually really You want on the high level by being focused on how to get there making the most efficient? Like then today? Is this what you want this surprise?

Max Hertan 40:07
Totally, you know, I think something that I tried to do is like, how do I get everything that I want and make it as easy as possible? And, you know, for good or for bad that maybe sometimes adds things that it also sometimes takes things away?

Itamar Marani 40:26
Yeah, no, I think I would let's put it this way. I think on a macro level, I think like, there's no denying the results that it's gotten you. It's just that also just to recognize some point like, it's to get what I want. And if possible, make it as easy as possible. Yeah, I mean,

Max Hertan 40:45
I think about this a lot, because I'm similar to you, Max, I optimize everything, like what I wear, like how I travel, all these kinds of things. Similar, you know, Chef and all these things. I think I the way I approach it is you've got a certain amount of bandwidth to do hard things. And I would rather not spend that bandwidth cooking my meals, I can cook my meals, I can expend some points of bandwidth on that. But then I can't do other things, which are more important, like train hard, right. So that is your perspective where both things are kind of they're they're not mutually exclusive. They're aligned. But yeah, if you're missing the woods for the trees and say, for months and years, you're optimizing this process of having these meals created, but for months and years, you're not actually eating them, then yes, that's that's where this falls apart a little bit. But I see where you're coming where you're both coming from. And I think it's not mutually exclusive.

Max Hertan 41:39
Yeah, I think like the thing that I was hanging up on at the time was, I wanted a personal trainer that could come to my house. And I think it's amazing trainer, the best trainer in Australia, maybe. But I had to go drive like 15 minutes to see him. And I was just like, I can't solve finding amazing personal trainer that will come to me and hit him. I was like, just driving for 15 minutes. It was like,

Itamar Marani 42:01
getting to know how far was Yeah, I would you pointed it out. I thought it was a two hour drive. Like what are we talking about? Ask so how far is it you were 15 minutes, like 15 minutes problem solving. That's like less bandwidth. Yeah, this?

Max Hertan 42:15
And like, I think that yeah, there's times where I get like, caught up in like, that I could make it better. And so I could just be also going to see that great person training in the meantime as well.

Itamar Marani 42:27
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a great solution to like how you're saying it basically on a principle level, to say, Okay, I'll do the thing right now, that gets actually the result. But while I'm doing that, it doesn't mean that I'm stuck in that. And that's just what I'm going to do. In the meantime, we can also figure out how we can optimize it.

Max Hertan 42:42
Yeah. Yeah. And I think also potentially, achieving some level of success makes you a little lazier in general, because, you know, I used to drive to the gym every day. And now I've got a home gym. And, you know, I just did it, I drove to the gym every day, I didn't like it. I was like, I always fantasize about having a home gym. But now to like, have to drive to the gym again, is like it feels like you know, additional burden. And I guess that can come with, like other things as well now, where it's like, I've, I did this to create life x. And if if I can't sell for life x and I just sometimes should do it. But I'm a little slow on it.

Itamar Marani 43:24
Yeah, I think we all experienced this as we graduated success, it's our ego also gets built. It's the more we can kind of bend the world to get what we want. The less it's easy for us to not, except that we can always bend the world. Yeah, if I can't bend and I'm not playing I'm taking my ball and going home, so to speak. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really thing to watch out for. It's like we all become more successful to recognize it's not it's our egos always gonna be there. It's like it's growing with us. And it's something to always be cautious of.

Max Hertan 43:54
Yeah, yeah.

Itamar Marani 43:57
All right. So I want to kind of wrap this up. But before I do, I want to ask you one last question. Because it was very interesting. That video that you posted, you talked about your experience with several coaches. And the one that you mentioned in the last one you said he was a very good coach. He's a very capable coach, he worked with your with two of your executives, but he didn't actually get them the results and you guys have to part ways. And as you said, the beginning of mentorship coaching has been a big thing for you. I'd love to hear your perspective on what do you think now after like all this experience, what how can people know the fit? Not if a coach is good? Because like you said, that's not really that relevant thing, but is it a fit for them and it's going to help them if you have any perspective on this.

Max Hertan 44:42
I mean, I guess for me i in finding you I work with six or seven or like I sampled six or seven coaches. And I remember when Emil made a recommendation, I was kind of like I push back a little bit. I'm like, Dude, I've spoken to a lot of people like how confident are you and he's like, just have a chat. I think you guys will get Hello. And so I think there is just kind of like a synergy. And for me personally, I like working with people that I like respect or admire in some way. And it comes, it comes like that in all professions are things you know that same with my personal trainer, if the personal trainer is amazing, but like, they're not like living and breathing themselves, it's hard for me to like, you know, the more you live something, the more weight or words have the best advice in the world set by someone that's not living it is still falls flat. And so that's something that I look for in my coach, someone that like I felt like is living and breathing it. And I guess being clear on like outcomes as well, which can be challenging, but I think I picked a more theoretical philosophical coach for my exact team, when they needed a tactical coach. And they were like, Yeah, we're enjoying this, it's good. You know, we like it. And it's like, this is like, really expensive. And the company is like, having it's worth theory of, like, I don't know what it's doing. But it's definitely not like translating to results. And so, and I'm sure he's amazing, and I'm sure he like he clearly is amazing. He's worked with some incredible people. But I just think for what, like, what I was trying to get and what he was good at. I hadn't like to get it out. And so I made a mistake on that.

Itamar Marani 46:23
Yeah, that's great. Emily, have any thoughts on this other kind of nodding along?

Max Hertan 46:27
Yeah, I mean, this whole conversation, we could, you know, go Joe Rogan on it and make three make it three hours. But we talk about this a lot, where there's a lot of, and I don't know who this guy is, so it's not against him. But there's a lot of stuff in this in this game, where it's about almost catharsis, making you feel warm and fuzzy and like, yeah, it's pleasant. It's enjoyable, but without the hard effective outcomes. And I suppose the question is, how to, how to find someone how to find a coach who will deliver the outcomes, and are you one willing to be open to the hard work that is required to get there and I suppose yeah, the discomfort of that, because you can either feel warm and fuzzy, do 10 sessions and great you feel warm and fuzzy, but without a result, or you can dig in, be confronted, be challenged, have the ego poked and actually get the result. And I suppose choosing which one you want to do, how important the result is to you, knowing what result you want, as you mentioned, is important.

Itamar Marani 47:28
Yeah, I think to simplify it and say something that's honestly a bit more, more, I don't wanna say harsh, but more true. And so somebody may need to clarify if they actually want that result or not. Like, I think some people like gravity, because I just want to feel like I'm doing it. I can give myself that, like, pat on the back and know that, and some people actually are about so to speak. And that's a big thing, like Max is absolutely about it. I mean, that's, that's the difference. And it's recognizing that. Cool. So I kind of want to, I want to summarize kind of what I heard from you, Max. And I'd love to hear if you feel that what I understood and how your perspective on this is correct, or if there's things they missed, or things you want to add on. Sounds good. Cool. So long term mission is a byproduct of having both an internal mission, and then an external vehicle you can attach that to. Otherwise, if you only have an external thing, it becomes a short term thing that you kind of outgrow, like, financial independence in your early life. Would that be accurate? Yep. And in order to do that, you have to be okay with this period of not knowing of not being fully clear, like for you, it was a lot of your work with coaches. I think you said, journaling, psychedelics, just like you have to be accepted, there's going to be that kind of gap and give yourself the space to figure it out. Yeah, I can tell though, great. Yeah. The second thing is that living a happy life isn't waiting for her to feel happy. It's living is a really active thing that you can take charge of. And by doing things that you're proud of, and living with a certain level of integrity, that's how you can say, okay, like, no matter how a Emil said, the chaos around me, I can still be happy because I know I'm doing the right things, and I can be proud of myself. And that proud gives me peace of mind and that peace, like Neville said, like peace is happiness at rest, basically. It's kind of that.

Max Hertan 49:22
Great, it's cool. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 49:24
And the final thing is, I think it's like, you want to optimize, but you can't lose the trees from the forest. Like, at the end of the day, it's like, if you think you're trying to optimize for is here, and you just gotta go get it. Sometimes you gotta go get it. But also remember, like, you still have that ability after you're doing enough. It's already serving, you still figure out how I can optimize it. And I think that's how it can help you work around to make sure that you're not how was the Emil says it kind of like this mental loop of, oh, I'll just keep doing this until one day and not actually doing it. But also you don't have to give up the ability to do things in a better fashion. If that makes sense. Yeah. Cool. Is there anything you want to add man? And he's kind of like last thoughts you want to share with people, someone who hasn't done this before we see them capable individuals, but they're not thinking and to be intentional or this or that, or just any general thoughts, man.

Max Hertan 50:17
I think like one thing that was helpful in like, discovering mission for me is like, I, you know, mirror the online whiteboard. Basically, it's like an online whiteboard. And you can just drag and drop things around. And I love whiteboards. Like I in my house in Melbourne, I got whiteboards everywhere, and I've got like three whiteboards. Yeah. But I think it was like, I think it was on psychedelics. But that's I was in a, I was in a philosophical state. And I was just kind of like writing like, ideas. And I think, yeah, one thing that stood out for me was that was helpful was just writing down a list of people that I admire. And it could be people in your own life. It could be friends, it could be, you know, mentors, coaches, it could be people online, and, and then looking at all the traits that you admire about them. And then looking at the intersection of all those traits, because I do think that those that you admire, hold close to the person that you want to become. And no one's going to perfectly encapsulate the person that you want to become. But like, you know, some of my people was like, I think we spoke about Aubrey Marcus, back in the day, and

Itamar Marani 51:30
it was him and the guy from The Fountainhead as well, Roark I forgot the name,

Max Hertan 51:34
Howard rock. Yeah, I've got I actually literally just got some Howard rock that I used to generate, that I'm putting up. It's typical. But, you know, if I look at those people like hydraulic perfect integrity, like very clear, like mission, but Aubrey Marcus that really balanced life of like love and health and mission alignment businesses and content creator. And I do think that there's hidden signals in there, once you deep dive into that, even just from the people around you, who are the friends that you admire, as well. And like looking at the consistencies that that can unlock some ideas around like what could be next for you if you're finding that mission?

Itamar Marani 52:12
stuff, man, it's very well said. Emil, any last words?

Max Hertan 52:18
No last words, because we could go off on another tangent. But that was that was yeah, there was a lot of good value there. Yeah,

Itamar Marani 52:25
I'll say, Max, thank you for having for coming on, man. I appreciate it. I also I have watched your YouTube channel. I learned a lot on the business side. I appreciate it. We'll have all the links in the show notes below for everybody to check that out. And that's it, man. Thank you, Max. Appreciate it was it was honestly a real pleasure working with you back in the day. It's a pleasure. You're still staying in touch and awesome student woman.

Max Hertan 52:45
I love the chat. It was a transformative experience for me and yeah, I appreciate it. Good See, brother.

Itamar Marani 52:54
Alright, see you guys in the next episode.