How to Overcome Anxiety and Get Back to Winning | Coaching Series #5

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:14:18
Itamar Marani
Today's podcast is going to be another installment of the coaching series, and I am very excited about this one. We have a very interesting podcast. Dave came on and Dave is Trader. He works for a hedge fund, but the things that we're actually going to be talking about go so much further than just trading or working in that world.

00:00:14:20 - 00:00:38:19
Itamar Marani
We're going to be talking about what happens when we don't focus on what we can control, how we can catch ourselves when we do that, and how we can focus on the right things to really help us win. We talk about what causes anxiety, what focus leakages we can block, and how we can really win big. His results also showed a week later he messaged me that he had his best day in the past nine months because we able to focus on certain things and eliminate things that didn't matter in his head.

00:00:39:00 - 00:00:53:06
Itamar Marani
It's an episode that I think you guys are going to get so much out of, and I really appreciate Dave for his honesty, his own ability and being willing for us to share. So listen, guys, it's a good one. I mean, so talk to me. I saw that email, but talking. What's going on?

00:00:53:08 - 00:01:16:02
Dave
Yeah, I mean, nothing really new, just kind of coming more to a boil really, you know, nuts and bolts that is overall challenging market conditions that it's kind of like, you know, trying to try to, you know, sail with the wind against you, which is just, you know, it can be frustrating and it to be it's to be expected.

00:01:16:02 - 00:01:38:22
Dave
And then I'm I'm I'm dealing with some other things that are outside of trading that aren't like, you know, are something but they're not like, you know, major health complications or like anything going on. My family like bad but they're just distracting and kind of in the last few weeks I'm starting to like the two are kind of meeting in intersections kind of compounding the mental frustration.

00:01:38:23 - 00:01:51:15
Dave
Now, the performance is really kind of, you know, nosedive lately. And yeah, it's just kind of I feel like I've told this story to almost everyone I know and it hasn't helped.

00:01:51:15 - 00:01:59:09
Itamar Marani
So what are they saying? What are the other traders saying? Because they're curious to hear what their perspective is on the challenging marketing conditions.

00:01:59:11 - 00:02:39:20
Dave
They're feeling very similar, very similar, at least guys that I know that I treat and I know the way they trade is similar to mine. They're struggling and I think everyone just deals with it differently. And, you know, I think you could even see by the numbers it's now I'm down about 130 on the year, which, you know, is it's it's not it's nothing really in the grand scheme of things of like my career, at least of seven years of being at this firm, you know, generated between four and $5 million of profits and giving back 130 in the last six months in a challenging market.

00:02:39:22 - 00:02:54:15
Dave
I know they're not overly worried, which, you know, I think that is a bit of a it's very unhelpful because like something in the back of my head is like I'm like fearful of like, you know, going back to the original reason I was really interested in your work was like that fear of abandonment.

00:02:54:17 - 00:03:17:01
Itamar Marani
Okay. So first things first. Coaching is a two way relationship. Now, the reason you're going to see this coaching session was very, very productive was because of how vulnerable and honest Dave was. Yes, we did do some technical things here at the beginning to separate. What do you think is going on versus what's actually going on? But none of that, all the techniques that I tried to apply wouldn't have mattered if he wasn't so vulnerable and honest and also aware of himself saying, Hey, I have stuff.

00:03:17:01 - 00:03:31:21
Itamar Marani
It's getting in my head. I have that fear of abandonment, and I think that's what's keeping it. So you notice that this episode of what you can do as someone who's on the other side of getting coaching, receiving, coaching, to make the person who's coaching, you be able to help you so much more. Let's dive back in, guys.

00:03:31:23 - 00:03:48:18
Itamar Marani
Let me jump in here a little bit. Have you actually asked the your your boss or superior like, what does this mean? I like were because I feel like you're probably not very clear on how much wiggle room you had. We'll talk what's not okay And so far this is a really important questions that I like to ask people.

00:03:48:18 - 00:04:06:15
Itamar Marani
Is this just how you're feeling or is this actually how it is now that's really important that you will take a step back and actually assess, okay, this is the real situation or this is just my fear of how this situation might affect me. That's why first I stopped And then before we go any further, did you actually clarify with your boss this is a situation or is this is basically how you feel about it?

00:04:06:21 - 00:04:10:10
Itamar Marani
It's a really crucial question. Let's dive back in.

00:04:10:12 - 00:04:31:03
Dave
Yes or no? Like I'm pretty close with my my manager. He's a similar age to me. We started relatively same time, but he's been at this firm for twice as long as I have. And, you know, we're close enough that I can have discussions like that. You know, as recently as Monday, I just being like, he knows where I'm at, you know, he knows what I'm feeling.

00:04:31:05 - 00:04:50:15
Dave
He's also like down on my ear, too. So it's like and he really understands, you know, it's just tough right now. And, you know, in the what he tells me, I don't get the sense at all like like, oh, my God, you wrote this like, only now getting like, this far, right? I know that. But at the same time, like, you know, they have.

00:04:50:17 - 00:05:05:01
Dave
Well, yeah, to answer your question, like there isn't an explicit number. It's more what they're more worried about. It's like style drift and someone that's starting to do stuff that isn't what they normally do. Like, for example, like Wall Street.

00:05:05:03 - 00:05:15:22
Itamar Marani
Brother, I get that. So here's the deal. Here's what I'm hearing from you. Have you ever heard the expression like, if you try to get the medal, you'll miss the target. But if you try to get a target, you'll get the medal.

00:05:16:00 - 00:05:17:17
Dave
I haven't heard it, but I like it.

00:05:17:17 - 00:05:28:04
Itamar Marani
It's a good one, right? It sounds like that's probably what's happening is your skill is pressure because of the numbers. So you're trying to go for the numbers instead of doing the right thing. That will actually get you the numbers.

00:05:28:06 - 00:05:42:21
Dave
Exactly like that is what's going on in the last three weeks. That's making me anxious, panicking, and like, that's what's different in the first six months of the year where I was just flat and like kind of doing my thing. But it just, you know.

00:05:42:23 - 00:05:58:06
Itamar Marani
So what you're hearing here is a very critical part of the conversation. We're moving from figuring out what is actually the problem to understanding what it actually is. And it finally clicks for David, if you're seeing this on YouTube, you can seem kind of look up with this like kind of vibe to him because he finally gets it that the issue is isn't his numbers.

00:05:58:07 - 00:06:11:12
Itamar Marani
The issue is actually how he's approaching trying to get those numbers. And now that we figure that out, we can dive into that and start solving the actual issue at hand. So let's talk about this because what you sent I in the email was numbers you sent me. These are the numbers that are.

00:06:11:13 - 00:06:13:22
Dave
I'm obsessed with these numbers. Now, you didn't.

00:06:14:03 - 00:06:36:23
Itamar Marani
You didn't send me. This is how I've been operating. And this is where it's actually been a flaw in how I'm operating. But the big thing to remember that that's, I think, where you're getting things wrong, you're focusing on the outcome, not what you can control out of it. And that's why you also I'm sorry, I feel like you're going into this kind of downward spiral because you're trying to control something you actually cannot control.

00:06:37:01 - 00:06:49:19
Itamar Marani
Right. Which has to do with the markets. Right? It's like the whole like we control what we can control. Then there's the outside world as well. The more we focus on the outside world, the less we focus on what we actually can control. Therefore are actually going to get a worse result. It's very paradox.

00:06:49:19 - 00:07:23:20
Dave
All but makes absolute sense. And yes, you're definitely striking on what the issue or at least one of the near-term issues are and why that spirally I'm feeling that spiral, whereas I had a similar drawdown earlier in the year. But it wasn't it wasn't that like obsessive results, just only caring about results and literally like, yeah, like I'm either super happy if the positions are up or super down when they're not.

00:07:23:20 - 00:07:33:01
Dave
And like the other 90% of the time when I'm trading, you know, I'm not trying to like personalize it as much and not do it.

00:07:33:03 - 00:07:58:19
Itamar Marani
Remember what we spoke about last night about how we all want to have that illusion of control. It causes us to focus on the wrong thing. And right now you're focusing on the wrong thing. And that's why it's so stressful, I think, because you're focusing on the wrong thing that you can't actually control. So it's frustrating emotionally and also technically, it's going to get your worst result because you're not actually giving your focus to what you can control and what would have been.

00:07:58:19 - 00:08:15:03
Itamar Marani
Okay, let's put it this way. Who's kind of in a bad mental spot right now is going to send me an email with all the actual results. Who's in a good mental spot is going to send me an email saying, Hey, these are the actions that I know I should be doing. This is what I'm doing. This is what I haven't been doing, and this is where I haven't been focused.

00:08:15:03 - 00:08:37:11
Itamar Marani
And therefore this is probably why these results happen. What do you think? Okay, so what I did here was incorporate a very powerful tool we use a lot. So it's very difficult for people to answer in the situation in the moment. What should I do here? What's the right thing to do? But if they can have this image in their head of what's effective me and what's ineffective me, and simply ask what would effectively be doing here, it's amazing how much clarity it brings.

00:08:37:11 - 00:08:57:11
Itamar Marani
It sounds very silly, but it actually works. So in a lot of situations, instead of asking what's the right thing to do here, simply ask What would an effective version of myself actually be doing here? And that's what I asked him in this conversation. If you focus more on being in training the right way and playing the game the right way and less so about the result, the result will follow.

00:08:57:11 - 00:09:04:04
Itamar Marani
Right now you only focus on the result, and that's why it's causing this sensation of mayhem, because you feel like I can't control anything.

00:09:04:06 - 00:09:14:06
Dave
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And what compounds the frustration? I know what I should be doing. It's it's not a lack of skill or knowledge of what needs to be done.

00:09:14:11 - 00:09:29:01
Itamar Marani
So let's take a step back for a second. They've literally just said, I know that I have all the skills to be dealing with this. Now, the reason this is so important is because we can now understand that this is a mindset issue. It's not a training, technical knowledge issue, but it's actually a mindset issue. And this is a really important one.

00:09:29:01 - 00:09:45:11
Itamar Marani
I want to take a step back because a lot of times people ask me, how do I know if the reason I'm not succeeding is because of some technical issues and technical skill gap or because of my mindset. And he just said it very, very well. But he knows he has the skill sets to achieve what he wants to achieve, but his mindset is what's holding him back.

00:09:45:11 - 00:09:55:23
Itamar Marani
So now that we've addressed this, we can also dive into that and recognize, okay, there's no skill set, we have nothing to do with the markets, but let's dive into you and how you're thinking processes. What should you be doing?

00:09:55:23 - 00:10:25:20
Dave
I should be okay. So here's one example I talked about with my boss on Monday. You know, our software where we're executing our trades. If you can imagine a ladder, the price is in the center of the ladder. There is bids on the left side lower than the midpoint of the price and offers on, you know, above the midpoint of the price and where the bids and asks meet is what the current market price is.

00:10:25:22 - 00:10:46:23
Dave
And as markets move, you know, as their offers are changing in the prices that they're transacting. So I see these ladders and that's what I'm staring at all day. And when there's volatility, you know, I have, let's say ten of ten markets that I'm looking at. It's almost like an instrument, like a pilot would look at, okay, here, oh, there's pressure coming out of here.

00:10:46:23 - 00:11:16:10
Dave
And this and an expanding volatility. It's an asset to use those as tools to navigate the market. The reverse happens when there's low volatility. It tricks, it deceives you, it makes you more impulsive when you should be more passive. So what I should not be doing is staring at ladders all day. And I'm literally like staring holes through my screen, staring at these ladders that are literally just in the environment where they're more likely to just try to deceive, confused, frustrate me.

00:11:16:12 - 00:11:17:02
Dave
And I know that.

00:11:17:03 - 00:11:32:12
Itamar Marani
You how can you clarify that? How can you have a clear mental model? Like how can you tell this is a situation where I should be looking at them and this is a situation where I should not be because I feel like what's probably happening to you is emotionally, you want it to be the kind of situation where there's volatility and then you can really look at it.

00:11:32:12 - 00:11:40:01
Itamar Marani
So you're like, Oh, maybe this. Hopefully that will work out. But what are very clear, like rules, you can say this is a bad time to follow these instruments. This is a good time.

00:11:40:03 - 00:12:03:20
Dave
Yeah. So this is where kind of I know the next progression of me as a trader needs to go. And it's like you said, like I've built a career off of doing it that one way, right? Like trading volatility. When there's volatility making hay while the sun is shining. And then when times are like tough like this, just making sure I say, you know, you want to eat like an elephant.

00:12:04:01 - 00:12:05:22
Dave
Like a bird.

00:12:06:00 - 00:12:08:17
Itamar Marani
Yeah, I get it.

00:12:08:19 - 00:12:10:13
Dave
Yeah. I was like, right.

00:12:10:13 - 00:12:13:15
Itamar Marani
Out of food, out and got it. And then make sure, like, you have your downside.

00:12:13:17 - 00:12:35:02
Dave
Yeah, but you know, where I'm going with this is, I think, the next progression, me as a trader and where Chris is. And in a way I know is the right path for me is that, you know, markets are going to always be changing conditions and to more look at it like a change in the weather and what I need to bring to that environment as opposed to just having that one mode.

00:12:35:04 - 00:12:41:19
Dave
So when things are like this, I need to be closing my ladders, looking at the charts a longer time.

00:12:42:00 - 00:12:55:04
Itamar Marani
How can you know? But again, the important thing is how can you know that at times like this, what could be the kind of flip the switch that you can say, okay, now it's time to actually not focus on this emotion. You're going to be drawn to focus on that. So, yeah, trip wires and speed.

00:12:55:06 - 00:13:19:06
Dave
And I guess I'd say the most crude, easy indicator is to look at the VIX, the volatility index. I can tell you that there is a very tight correlation between my performance and the VIX level and also the rate of change of the VIX. So like for example, the VIX has been ranging between like a low of like eight, like over the last 50 years.

00:13:19:06 - 00:13:40:11
Dave
It's the lowest it can possibly get. So upwards of 90 and very rare occurrences every decade. So right now at 13, it's been there for two months and when it's below 15, I could probably be better off not taking risks. Okay. Going this is really interesting.

00:13:40:12 - 00:14:05:02
Itamar Marani
And I would say, okay, we have a clear measurement that when the VIX is below 15, that's when these charts can actually like full year emotion. Now, an important thing to recognize is that I absolutely have no idea what the VIX actually is. The only thing I was looking for here is, is there some kind of clear benchmark, a number, for example, 15 in the VIX index that we can say this is your line in the sand, this is a trip wire that you know that if it's above or below this, your actions need to change.

00:14:05:04 - 00:14:24:05
Itamar Marani
Now, the reason this is so powerful is because when we're emotionally drawn to something and we want something to happen, we sometimes ignore a lot of warning signs. But if we can preemptively clarify that this is the warning sign that we have to stop, it can make all the difference. And even when we're an emotional state, it can logically forces say, okay, this is the line, I'm not going to go past it.

00:14:24:07 - 00:14:41:19
Itamar Marani
So a really powerful thing for you to do at home right now is if you have any situation that you know your emotion that you want to happen, but it's not really going that way, decide what's going to be your line in the sand, that if you cross this certain threshold, it's very clear, the clearer the better. Then you have to take a step back, pause and say, okay, we got to retreat, figure out a different way.

00:14:41:21 - 00:14:58:00
Itamar Marani
They don't actually have volatility, but it kind of feels like you want to get in on the action, right? Yeah, right. So first off, that's really good. That's that's one way to cap. The downside is to recognize, like, these are kind of boundaries that I set for myself preemptively. If the VIX is below 15, I don't follow the charts and trade with them further.

00:14:58:04 - 00:14:59:16
Itamar Marani
That makes sense.

00:14:59:18 - 00:15:00:17
Dave
Yes.

00:15:00:19 - 00:15:02:22
Itamar Marani
Any questions about that one?

00:15:03:00 - 00:15:32:22
Dave
No. I mean, I was hoping that it would been that simple because you could get more complicated where you're looking at correlations between assets like when it's very what was so great about last year was that interest rates were driving the macro boss basically. So I'd watch the fixed income ladders and they'd be going down in price. And the weird thing with, you don't know finances is if interest rates are rising, the price of those securities are going down.

00:15:33:00 - 00:15:51:06
Dave
So the price of those securities were going down all year because interest rates are rising. It was a very tight correlation on the days that the interest rates would be rising. When those bond prices would be falling, the stock market would follow suit and it would literally follow it. It was it was that was the leader and that was the edge that we had.

00:15:51:08 - 00:16:18:10
Dave
So, you know, a simple correlation would have been rather in like 90%. So with we had hard edge, but now there's very little correlation between like currencies and equities and commodities. Everything's kind of floating out of stone ocean. And like I said, those instances where I'm kind of getting really tripped up, that's when I'm almost hoping that the correlation is going to be at a higher level, but not in a, you know, getting in at the wrong spot.

00:16:18:10 - 00:16:23:00
Dave
And it's just not a good it's the wrong weather for that type of style I get.

00:16:23:00 - 00:16:37:23
Itamar Marani
Okay. Now this is another example where I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about with all the technical jargon. But the reason we actually wanted to leave it into the podcast was to showcase what I was doing there. Now, because of the fact that I understand what he was talking about, I could see what he was emotionally processing.

00:16:38:01 - 00:16:59:10
Itamar Marani
He was trying to explain to himself, Oh, this is why I do this thing emotionally, and that's why I'm actually doing it. And it doesn't serve me. And it was something that he needed to actually say out loud in order to process so we can move on from that. And it's a really important thing, both of the coaches listening to this and the people going through coaching you sometimes do need to give people that space to be able to say, okay, this is what was happening.

00:16:59:10 - 00:17:15:11
Itamar Marani
That's why I was doing it. That makes sense to me. Now I can move on. It's a really powerful tool to give people that space to actually go through. Let's get back to the pot. Let's do this. Also, I'll say this because I don't have enough technical knowledge to actually know if anything here is correct or not. So we have one.

00:17:15:11 - 00:17:19:00
Dave
You have pretty good intuition about trading. That's it.

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:35:06
Itamar Marani
I have a pretty good intuition about how you're how you're working and that I try to make correlations, but not about trading. But I think what's really important is to figure out if like to follow up with your peers. People actually know this stuff. If the below 50 mark is something they had agreed on, like, oh, that's actually a really good benchmark.

00:17:35:06 - 00:17:41:09
Itamar Marani
We could actually adopt that ourselves. Like if you get that reaction from them, then we know, okay, this is actually a good measurement.

00:17:41:11 - 00:17:44:17
Dave
Yeah, I know they'd agree.

00:17:44:17 - 00:18:08:19
Itamar Marani
Can you test it just to make sure because there is some emotionality here. So that's one. Let's talk about the next progression. So I'm looking at your sheet. The your main focus for the next six months is slow, as smooth, as smooth as fast. I'm not sure that's accurate from what I'm hearing here. So just for a little bit of context, what we're talking about here with all of our clients, what we do is we want to make sure we're tracking them and debriefing and how they're succeeding or not succeeding.

00:18:09:01 - 00:18:23:22
Itamar Marani
So what we do, everybody has a goal for the next season, the next six months, the things they want to focus on then and part of the track are we have layers of accountability where the things they should be doing and also what will create psychological safety for them to really venture out of their growth zone into the very edges of their comfort zone.

00:18:24:00 - 00:18:40:12
Itamar Marani
Because once you can give someone that psychological safety and a high level of accountability, they can execute at a really high level. And that's what we also focus on. What should you be focusing on executing for this next season? And that's what we dive into here. It's getting back to it. Like if we want to make sure that also you learn how to be better.

00:18:40:12 - 00:19:00:20
Itamar Marani
Also, I would say like the snow games, so to speak, like in football, not just like when it's done, when it's when the sun is shining, it's like you have to focus more on just training correctly than the result. Well, if you're also fumbling great ideas because you're feeling anxious and you're operating from this place of like just a jolting like, I need to do something to make up for this loss.

00:19:00:22 - 00:19:24:01
Itamar Marani
And I think again, that the more you focus not on the the result, the numbers, but in doing things the right way, you have a bigger sense of control. And that sense of control will create a sense of calm that can relieve a lot of that anxiety. Like I really when I really like to take a step back, I think you're feeling really anxious because the thing you're trying to optimize around these external results with the markets are things you can't control.

00:19:24:03 - 00:19:44:18
Itamar Marani
Of course, it's going to make everyone feel nervous and uncomfortable when they're like their fate is completely out of their control. But if you're saying the thing I actually want to decide is what I'm trying to optimize for is my behavior is how I'm operating in the market. That can give you a sense of calm because, you know, you can do a phenomenal job every day and I can associate with you like you want to do a phenomenal job.

00:19:44:18 - 00:19:57:21
Itamar Marani
You want to exceed, you want to be elite. And I think you're trying to do that with something that you actually can't control. That's a lot more challenging. But if you just focus on what you can't control, you can go into work every day like, okay, I'm going to be the best at focusing on what I can control and I'm going to be proud of that.

00:19:58:02 - 00:20:17:10
Itamar Marani
That gave me a sense of peace and calm. And I know that also, like you said, in the long run, me focusing on this and building up a system, a process, whatever, for these more challenging times, these lean times overall, that's going to make you infinitely better as well. But the 5 to 10 year trajectory. So this one, I want to take a step back and talk about what's actually impactful and what's not.

00:20:17:13 - 00:20:37:11
Itamar Marani
So what you said here is I'm having some anxiety around this, a common way to say, okay, if someone has anxiety, let's pump them up. Let's add a better morning routine. Let's give them something to be motivated about. Let's give them a bigger way to grasp on to what we're trying to do here. Something very different. Instead of saying, How can we get you more motivated to overcome this anxiety, we're saying, Well, why are you feeling anxious?

00:20:37:16 - 00:20:54:15
Itamar Marani
Because he's trying to control something that you can't. So therefore, let's actually focus. We want you can't control. We're not trying to add more stuff to overcome this feeling of anxiety. We're trying to remove the source of why he's feeling anxious. And the moment he can do that, you see, feel this kind of rational calm. And now we can really set through the much bigger and better trajectory.

00:20:54:15 - 00:21:09:20
Itamar Marani
So it's a really important lesson when you're feeling anxious instead of trying to say, how can I massive by getting more amped up, doing more things, controlling self-doubt, whatever it may be, think what's actually the source, What's causing my sense of anxiousness and how can I actually figure out if this is a valid source or not and resolve that?

00:21:10:01 - 00:21:16:20
Itamar Marani
That's what's going to give you infinitely better results for the long term and the short term. Let's get back to the pot.

00:21:16:20 - 00:21:45:14
Dave
Yeah, Yeah. No, I couldn't be couldn't agree more because I haven't been having that mindset and I've felt paralyzed. So like, follow through with these, you know, even this project gives me an insane amount of anxiety like the side projects. Like, yeah I know there's not like that. You're not going to like, do anything to me if I don't do it and like, no one like, but I, I like, I want to do it and move forward with it.

00:21:45:14 - 00:22:01:10
Dave
But it's just like paralyzed because I feel like I need to make sure the way I like trading and good at trading in the past, like, I can't miss that fear of missing out. So unhelpful. And it's like the opposite of obviously what needs to be done.

00:22:01:12 - 00:22:16:00
Itamar Marani
It's beyond that. It's the opposite of where are you going? Then it's like the person you are is just a stepping stone to who you're going to be the next round. And then something you've got to recognize. Now, this is a really important aspect of what's happening here. What we just realized is that he's having a fixed identity.

00:22:16:00 - 00:22:29:13
Itamar Marani
He's saying this is kind of what it is, it's what I'm good at, and oh, what I'm trying to say. I'm like, you got to shift your identity. You can have a growth mindset and say, This is who I was, but this is how I'm going to evolve into. And the moment I can accept that, I can actually stack these things together.

00:22:29:13 - 00:22:44:11
Itamar Marani
And I'm not just fixed in my identity of what I'm good at, what I'm bad at. That's when you give yourself an opportunity to go to the next level. So it's a really big thing. If ever you feel like you're frustrated because this is just what I do, step out of that identity that you hold for yourself and ask yourself, What's the next version of me?

00:22:44:15 - 00:23:10:00
Itamar Marani
What would they be doing here? And you can ask that it shifts the entire dynamic and puts you in a position of power. That is, you're stacking skills. Like if you say you have you already have a strong skill as far as trading during volatile times. What if you had it then? We also had a strong skill on being able to trade decent during lean times, so that way you can always keep surviving.

00:23:10:02 - 00:23:14:08
Dave
But like improve my life dramatically.

00:23:14:10 - 00:23:25:06
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So think about it. It's not going to replace the the way you like to trade. It's going to be in addition to that, it's not going to ruin your gains. It's going to cap your downside.

00:23:25:08 - 00:23:44:03
Dave
Yeah, no, I, I totally am on board with that. It's just, you know, where you're going with like, you know, focusing on the process and what I can control. This is hopefully going to unlock the the panic and paralysis I hope I have over like just following through with what we agree with that It's it is the next progression.

00:23:44:03 - 00:23:47:02
Dave
It is what I want to do and what I should do.

00:23:47:04 - 00:24:06:18
Itamar Marani
But beyond that, I think it's one you can choose to take pride in. Like the let's put it this way, what you're going through is very common. It's a very human thing. You want to control things. Probably every trader, almost every trader, unless they're very much in that like psychopath level, like they care about what's going on, what's the result?

00:24:06:20 - 00:24:21:19
Itamar Marani
And they get distracted by that. The people who really succeed, they can just focus on what they need to focus on. And you can take pride in saying, I'm the kind of trader it's going to focus on what's within my realm of control, because I know that the more I focus on this, the more the result will follow.

00:24:21:21 - 00:24:28:20
Itamar Marani
And all the people that are just focusing on the results, it's actually not going to follow as well.

00:24:28:20 - 00:24:54:13
Dave
Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, when I get heart and trust me, I can get really hot and different things, but I'm training too. And it's just when I'm in that zone of like just I almost don't really care about the result. It's like you're getting so, so much satisfaction right after like, wow, I was adapting really well to, like, especially challenging polar conditions.

00:24:54:15 - 00:24:57:21
Dave
Yeah, the resources, the results follow for sure.

00:24:57:23 - 00:25:18:05
Itamar Marani
So that's awesome. So first off, the reason that's so powerful is because you know that you already have kind of, let's call it evidence that when you follow the process and you just focus in on that, the results come. So now the discipline is about saying, I'm still going to do that, even when the results aren't immediately showing because I know it's the right thing to do.

00:25:18:07 - 00:25:28:12
Itamar Marani
So let's go into your when we have your standard for the next six months, I think it need to change it instead of slow, smooth, smooth, fast. What do you think we should change it to? What should be your primary focus?

00:25:28:14 - 00:25:39:22
Dave
What was what you had just said about being a trader who takes pride in adapting or changing and progressing?

00:25:39:22 - 00:25:53:09
Itamar Marani
So I'm not sure he said all the progressing, but basically you can I can I would say I can choose to be a trader who takes pride in following the process and focusing on what I can control.

00:25:53:11 - 00:25:59:19
Dave
Yeah, no, I like that a lot. Yeah. I choose to be a trader who takes pride in following his process.

00:25:59:21 - 00:26:17:11
Itamar Marani
Yeah, and following this. And again, I'll say this like, this is how I look at it from the outside. The guys who are looking at the numbers, they're going to see they they really want to get these bonuses here because they want to get a Lamborghini or whatever. Maybe it's an external source of motivation. The person was just saying, I want to be a phenomenal trainer trader.

00:26:17:11 - 00:26:33:18
Itamar Marani
I just really want to get great at it. They have an internal motivation. They're going to win out. It's just what it is because these external guys, when downtimes comment, they always do come. They're going to get really shaken. And I think that's what happens you a little bit. You got to refocus your social motivation to an internal one.

00:26:33:20 - 00:27:00:02
Dave
I think I just kind of had like a revelation as you're talking. So I was kind of smirking over, okay, so there's a trading psychologist as the scrub lady initial who I, you know, augment a little bit. Yep. She says that if you want to get out of a slump, you have to go back to when it started.

00:27:00:02 - 00:27:22:16
Dave
I didn't really think I was in a slump and I think I was just losing money, making money, and now in the last three weeks, losing money again. But I really think about it. Last year was my best year ever. I made money 11 months in a row, and in December I was like, I don't know, like $80,000 shy of being up 2 million on the year and, you know, somewhat of a goal, Stupid.

00:27:22:22 - 00:27:41:01
Dave
Trust me. I know. Yeah. And also that that goal of being perfect like 12 months in a row profitability and I lost like 60 K one day which was like more than I would typically lose on a day. And then like the next day I lost 100 coach like most of our lost in a day in my career.

00:27:41:03 - 00:28:03:02
Dave
But you know, it's coming after like an amazing year. So I'm like off like 150 K from that 2 million mark. And I just kind of stopped for the year and it was a bit of a bittersweet ending to the year because it was like, Yeah, then you killed it. You had a great year. But you, you have, you had this goal that was was a goal, but it was kind of stupid too.

00:28:03:02 - 00:28:31:02
Dave
And it made you rich and it made you the reason I lost that 60 K, that 100 K is because I wasn't following the process. I was trying to get to that goal. Yeah. And basically that's when the slump started. And I'm realizing you're right. Like I had that process for like 11 months or so and I was following it and just, you know, like it will always happen.

00:28:31:04 - 00:28:42:09
Dave
My mind played this trick on me that I needed something else to not follow the process because I wanted this thing shiny object and started.

00:28:42:09 - 00:28:59:11
Itamar Marani
You wanted a validation tool. You looked at that 2 million is is a way to validate that you're a phenomenal trader. There's no way anyone at the firm will abandon you because you're a superstar and you focused on that. That's what it meant to you probably. And again, that's why it caused you to not follow the actual process.

00:28:59:11 - 00:29:30:15
Itamar Marani
The thing that was helping you when total and the thing that's really powerful because if you can be aware of that, recognize, oh, one of the things one of my is going to say is like some people are overoptimistic, but I would say, okay, one of my biases is that I look for these validation tools because the thing that's going to give me safety as far as abandonment stuff, that's something I've really got to be conscious of because whenever I catch that meaning to something, that's when I just get emotional, go into it and go and follow the logical thing that I should be doing.

00:29:30:18 - 00:29:50:02
Itamar Marani
So an interesting concept is a difference to being problem focused and emotion focused. When you're problem focused, you're actually recognizing what is the actual problem here and what will be the best course of action I can use. Actually solving get a better outcome. When you're being emotion focused, you're actually saying, I'm feeling a certain way and all of a sudden all my attention goes to how can I not feel that way?

00:29:50:02 - 00:30:04:16
Itamar Marani
Instead of actually what's the correct strategic thing to do. There was an interesting spot here where he recognized he was using this as a validation tool for him not to feel a certain way. So all of a sudden, instead of focusing on what is the correct strategic thing to do, he was just thinking himself, How could I not feel this way?

00:30:04:17 - 00:30:23:23
Itamar Marani
And because he was thinking that way, he wasn't being effective. Now, a really powerful tools to recognize where do you get sucked into emotional focus states? What are sensitive spots for you? For him, it was getting to a certain number that makes him feel like, Wow, I'm going to be amazing here. Everyone's going to love me. There's no chance I'm ever going to be abandoned by the firm or my bosses or whatever it may be.

00:30:24:01 - 00:30:45:18
Itamar Marani
Now, the fact that he knows that whenever those issues arise, he can get to be in this emotion focused state and he'll look for validation tools instead of what's the correct strategic path for him to follow is extremely powerful because he can be aware of it. So if you don't know where the areas in your business are in your life, then you get sucked into being emotion focused because you need certain things to feel like you're validated.

00:30:45:20 - 00:31:09:09
Itamar Marani
It's crucial that you get that, otherwise you can fall into a pit and you won't know why. You're thinking about the wrong things and being ineffective because you're focusing your emotions, not the actual problems at hand. Let's get back to the pot, because that's a much more powerful, deeper tool than just 15 below the VIX index. That has a macro impact everywhere.

00:31:09:09 - 00:31:31:23
Dave
And like I haven't been following my process, but doing my weekly reflections over the last month, I've only done one. It's just it's just I'm not following my process. And that's why literally I was like I needed to reach out to you because I knew like this was not going to go this is not going to go well down this path.

00:31:32:00 - 00:31:57:02
Itamar Marani
And again, I think it's the fact that you're not following your process is a symptom of what's actually going on. What's actually going on is that you've shifted away. You've shifted towards focusing on external results and external motivations. Instead of focusing on internal motivation. I want to be the best trader possible. Okay. Now, what's really important to understand here, there's a difference between how you optimize, to enjoy your life and how you optimize for your performance.

00:31:57:02 - 00:32:12:13
Itamar Marani
So there's are two very different things. I very much like to enjoy life. I buy a lot of expensive things for my dog. I have a very beautiful home. I like external things as well. Now the difference is that you can't optimize your performance or on trying to aim for those things. When you do that, you actually get confused.

00:32:12:18 - 00:32:38:13
Itamar Marani
And so it's really important when you're optimizing your performance to focus on your internal state. How can you optimize for you feel like I'm going to be the best performance possible because that's going to give you the external things in life that you can really enjoy and have a lot of fun with. That's what we're going there. I'm never going to say don't enjoy the external things in life, but the recognition is that the more you actually focus on your performance, the more of those nice external things, like really expensive things for your dog or a really nice home, you can actually get for yourself and those around you.

00:32:38:15 - 00:32:55:04
Itamar Marani
Someone who wants to be the best trader possible, they would do their debriefs, their weekly debriefs, but someone who's focused on the result, they get frustrated. The result. I think that's the thing. The more you can bring it in and be again, like I'm not what we in the beginning that if you try to get the medal you'll miss the target.

00:32:55:06 - 00:33:01:15
Itamar Marani
But if you aim for the target, you get the medal. The more you go back to that, I think everything else kicks in.

00:33:01:17 - 00:33:03:07
Dave
On a some other important.

00:33:03:13 - 00:33:24:10
Itamar Marani
I think the thing like that you have to accept that the challenge that's not natural. That's why these are kind of like quotes or whatever exists, because it's not that natural tendency we all have. But that's where you can really choose to be an early trade and you can have a lot of sense of like a big sense of pride in yourself, because if you can do what most others can't, you're going to get the results and you can have that sense of pride.

00:33:24:10 - 00:33:46:06
Dave
Yeah, that's what made last year amazing. It was like it was I felt a lot of pride, but it also like was amazing because it was like stress free because like when I was losing and of course I lost like it was on, it was the right way. It was just part of the statistical distribution of following this process this way.

00:33:46:06 - 00:33:48:20
Dave
I know. You know. So yeah.

00:33:48:22 - 00:34:05:09
Itamar Marani
So you said it the right way. And I felt like when you said as I'm thinking, it was like it had an emotional resonance there. So this is a very crucial part of the coaching conversation. We finally got into that point where Dave, instead of feeling upset and confused and anxious about why this happened in the past, he's back to the seat of power.

00:34:05:10 - 00:34:21:17
Itamar Marani
We can organize. If I simply do these things and focus on what I can control, I can achieve the results. And that's always what we're trying to do. We're trying to bring people back to what they control so they can focus all their energy and actually what they can control. They can influence the outcome. It's a very powerful tipping point and always should be geared towards that.

00:34:21:17 - 00:34:37:21
Itamar Marani
How can we get people to do the most amount of effort on what they actually can control and not worry about things that are outside of the control and wasting their bandwidth on that? Let's get back to the pot. Would that be the standard for the next six months? Focus. Just focus on doing things the right way and the results will follow that standard.

00:34:37:21 - 00:34:41:03
Itamar Marani
If you focus on that, like everything just kind of falls into place.

00:34:41:05 - 00:34:43:06
Dave
Feel really charged up.

00:34:43:06 - 00:35:02:13
Itamar Marani
That's about it. So like, tell me your three main takeaways from here. When we talk about today. Now you can notice that I almost cut him off here after you saying I'm all charged up and he feels excited. And I ask him, okay, so what are the main takeaways now? The reason I'm doing that is because I'm not interested in him feeling charged up and all excited and motivated and going out and really crushing the next week.

00:35:02:15 - 00:35:20:21
Itamar Marani
What I'm actually interested in for him to have a roadmap to success for the next several years. So it's not just about him feeling better right now, it's about really recognizing what are the main lesson lessons that I can take away from this embody and that way that can succeed on a long term basis. So I think it's always crucial to not end sessions with I'm feeling better.

00:35:21:02 - 00:35:31:00
Itamar Marani
That's feel good fluff, but I'm actually I'm feeling much more confident now because I understand how to do this. And this is a long term strategy that I can use and I can really win consistently. Let's get back to the part.

00:35:31:02 - 00:35:57:07
Dave
You, the person that you want to be like, just, you know, follow your process and well, I'm just rambling. So I'd say like, yeah, just be who you are. Like, this is it's driving me nuts being so obsessed with the results because it's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, just, just get back to being who you are.

00:35:57:10 - 00:36:05:06
Dave
Because chasing, chasing results, like, it just leads. It's like a life of misery, really.

00:36:05:08 - 00:36:24:05
Itamar Marani
It's something that you can't control. But I would say that you still want to chase them. That's who you are. You don't want to chase. So like, Chase being the best trader you can be, not the result. And if you chase being the best trader you can be, that result will inevitably follow. And that's also where you can feel a sense of peace in controlling is like, okay, I can actually do something every day to be that best trader I can.

00:36:24:05 - 00:36:36:00
Itamar Marani
I can't control the market volatility. So that's number one. Yeah. Number two, what's a very like simple trip wire that we covered.

00:36:36:02 - 00:36:38:11
Dave
The VIX like below 15.

00:36:38:13 - 00:36:48:13
Itamar Marani
Yeah. If it's below 15. Yeah, go ahead. Any other takeaways for today.

00:36:48:15 - 00:37:14:13
Dave
Yeah. No, I think that I really like what you said about how I have this. You know, definitely we've, we've uncovered that this fear of abandonment is a bit of a sure fire for me and to be just more cognizant of it like it is so much wrapped up into this, like obsession with results is what, you know, other people are going to think about them when I mean, objectively, it's absurd.

00:37:14:13 - 00:37:32:19
Dave
Like I know where I'm at. They don't care at all. Like they know I'm a good guy. They know I'm a great trader. Like they believe in me. They know I'm not being me right now and they just are being patient. So like, just stop worrying about what they're thinking and just focused on myself.

00:37:32:21 - 00:37:44:23
Itamar Marani
Just scratched around. And the last thing that I'll say is that that, quote, fear. Like if you try to get the metal in this target, if you aim for the target, you'll get the metal. That's just how it works.

00:37:44:23 - 00:37:50:10
Dave
Yeah, I like that. I'm going to write that down all that much from a Post-it note.

00:37:50:12 - 00:37:53:04
Itamar Marani
I haven't any last questions for today.

00:37:53:06 - 00:38:11:22
Dave
No, thank you. I honestly, I'm really charged up. Like, this is exactly what I needed. And you're. You're pretty amazing, too, to just drill down and 30 minutes like that. So much of the talent that I know and not many people have. So I'm feel very fortunate. Lucky to have found you.

00:38:12:00 - 00:38:26:21
Itamar Marani
I appreciate it. And I'm go kick some ass. First off, I want to give a big credit for Dave for this coaching call and how he ran an on his side. He was willing to be vulnerable and honest about the things that he didn't feel comfortable with and because he was willing to expose them, we were able to work on them and he's able to win.

00:38:26:21 - 00:38:44:14
Itamar Marani
And so I constantly win so big that the first big lesson that if you're ever getting coaching yourself, the more honest and vulnerable you're willing to be, the more you're going to get out of it. That's number one. Now, number two, if you feel similar to how day was it, sometimes you feel a bit frustrated or a bit anxious about why you're not achieving the results that you're getting.

00:38:44:16 - 00:39:01:16
Itamar Marani
A good question to ask yourself is, what am I focusing on? Am I so obsessed with getting the result that I'm actually not focusing anymore on what I can do to make that result happen? Am I craving to get the medal so much that I'm not actually focusing on the target that I need to hit in order to get that medal?

00:39:01:18 - 00:39:16:19
Itamar Marani
It's a very powerful question. So if you feel like you have a lot of things going around in your head and you're not able to focus on what you need to do, so shut down. Ask yourself, am I focusing on the medal or my focusing on the target that I need to focus on? So from that, I hope the podcast was helpful.

00:39:16:19 - 00:39:18:14
Itamar Marani
I will see everybody next week.