Fake Humility Keeps You Weak | Elite Performance Podcast #42

00:00:00:08 - 00:00:15:04
Itamar Marani
If you're just saying I'm medium or below because I'm not supposed to say I'm better or think that I'm better than anybody. Again, by say, I'm not saying say it to other people, but say to yourself that I'm better. I've done the work to be better. You're not going to go for better opportunities. You're not going to go for bigger things.

00:00:15:06 - 00:00:30:17
Itamar Marani
You're not going to give yourself permission to actually go for it. And I think it's extremely harmful. It's okay to feel better than other people. That doesn't mean you are more worthy. It doesn't mean that you're inherently a better person or that you were born better. It simply means that you have earned it. You do the work that other people won't.

00:00:30:22 - 00:00:52:22
Itamar Marani
You choose to act in ways that others want. You face your challenges. Head up. Roll up your sleeves and do the painful work that others would shy away from. You face your life with courage, where others are paralyzed by fear. For all these reasons, you have made yourself a better person than most. And you should acknowledge this. This one broke my brain, and I experienced strong emotional resistance to hearing Itamar say this.

00:00:53:00 - 00:01:08:04
Itamar Marani
For that reason, I know it's important and something I must explore further. But if you want to be a strong, confident man, you must be able to take pride in the fact that you see yourself as better than most. Again, be kind to those behind you. Stay humble and feel excited to be in the presence of great men.

00:01:08:06 - 00:01:27:21
Itamar Marani
Don't become arrogant. Don't change how you act with the people, but carry yourself in the way that a great man. What? This was written as a summary to one of the conversations we had in the lead event by Fabian, one of the guys in the elite. And it was a very interesting subject because it got brought up when we were doing a roundtable and I could see one of the guys.

00:01:27:23 - 00:01:44:17
Itamar Marani
We're just not willing to acknowledge how good he is a certain thing. And because of that, he was holding himself back. He had this false sense of humility. It was actually ineffective. So what we're going to talk about today is why it's actually important to be able to acknowledge that you are better than most if you put in the work.

00:01:44:19 - 00:02:01:03
Itamar Marani
And what's the difference between effective humility and actually harmful humility? So it's going to be a bit controversial today. You're going to feel a bit squirmy. That's all right. We're going to get through it. We're going to talk about some dodgy subjects and we're going to get started. So first off, Alex, thank you for joining me today.

00:02:01:05 - 00:02:03:10
Alexander De Fina
Thank you having me. I'm excited to get to it.

00:02:03:12 - 00:02:06:17
Itamar Marani
Cool. Any initial thoughts on this before we get started?

00:02:06:19 - 00:02:11:00
Alexander De Fina
I'm just bracing myself to feel the feelings as of.

00:02:11:00 - 00:02:26:10
Itamar Marani
Right. So here's what I really want to jump into the whole thing. I'm better than other people. It's like we talked about it last week in part one of this part that, like, you do need to judge. And if you don't judge, you deny yourself the ability to really have an effective outlook on life, what works, what doesn't, and so on and so on.

00:02:26:12 - 00:02:43:20
Itamar Marani
So with that, you want to judge like, am I doing a better job than most? Now, we already talked last week about all the stuff about it's okay to do that, why it's effective to do that, and so on and so on and so on. Now I want to dive into a bit of a deeper realm here and talk about effective humility versus harmful humility.

00:02:43:22 - 00:02:51:17
Itamar Marani
And I like it off the bat like we talked about this obviously a bit, but what do you think is the difference between effective humility and hopeful humility?

00:02:51:19 - 00:03:10:11
Alexander De Fina
I guess the context for me would be, you know, what are we trying to work towards getting clearly trying to work towards and then look at whether that humility is acting as a pillar forwards or is it acting as an anchor? Is that something which is holding you back?

00:03:10:13 - 00:03:16:00
Itamar Marani
So what do you mean by what are you working towards? Give me an example. Elaborate a little bit. Help me understand.

00:03:16:01 - 00:03:46:02
Alexander De Fina
Sure. So whether it would be in business, relationships, etc.. So let's say I wanted to have a stronger marriage, stronger relationship. If my humility is in some way affecting and causing trouble in that relationship, then I would say that it's ineffective, harmful humility and not effective business only as an easier context for me to understand as to where is it effective or where is it harmful.

00:03:46:04 - 00:03:49:12
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So where do you think it's harmful in business?

00:03:49:14 - 00:04:17:02
Alexander De Fina
Harmful in business would be. It could be intentionally downplaying your capabilities. It could be not setting goals or aspirations, setting the bar high enough, sort of playing within the comfort zone, coming from a place of humility. But maybe it's actually coming from a place of fear or it's it's at least not helpful to maybe moving the needle on whatever the desired outcome is.

00:04:17:04 - 00:04:35:17
Itamar Marani
Yeah, I think you said something so spot on that it doesn't come from a place of humility, comes from fear a lot of times. So one of the other guys in the lead, and I'm not going to name him by name because I don't if he's public about this, but I knew him for about a year and a half before he actually joined the ARENA program.

00:04:35:18 - 00:04:58:17
Itamar Marani
And we had lived in a similar space and like a similar place in the same town. And I knew him, I would see him and like jujitsu and it's like, Oh, he's just kind of like a nice guy. But that's all I thought of him because he never gave me the opportunity to see that the fact that he has like this giant trailer chain of hostels and hotels and restaurants and all that, and he never gave anybody else a chance to do that.

00:04:58:17 - 00:05:20:07
Itamar Marani
And then he wondered, like, why doesn't he have an actual network, like a strong community, both for like business and personal? It's because he had this fear of, you know, all the people from, let's say, the Commonwealth countries, the tall poppy syndrome. I can see how a lot of the guys from the UK, New Zealand, Australia is this fear of like, oh, if, if I just show myself, people will think America and that's a bad thing, I'll be ostracized.

00:05:20:09 - 00:05:39:06
Itamar Marani
And that's where that humility actually cost him a lot as far as network and as far as a social network as well. And like only after I remember when he messaged me one day and he was like, Hey, man, I think I want to do a program. And I felt really awkward about it because I was like, Man, how can I explain to him that's an expensive program and he's probably not going to be able to afford a little bit.

00:05:39:06 - 00:05:56:06
Itamar Marani
I know what he's actually up to, but it's like it's an example where that fear of being judged by like actually being able to like, say who you are and be comfortable with it. It's like people keep themselves small. That's where it's really ineffective. Like, I wasn't going to talk about it, but I think it's such a good point.

00:05:56:08 - 00:06:27:17
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, I've noticed the same thing coming from from Australia. I think that social conditioning is mirrored UK, New Zealand where where there's a poppy syndrome have a really hard time acknowledging our achievements or positive attributes. And that poppy syndrome can be really harmful in terms of trying to improve the quality of your life because of that, that fear of public ridicule, judgment, etc..

00:06:27:19 - 00:06:54:22
Itamar Marani
Yeah, so that's point one. Like what your bipolar is going to bring up. Point one is public ridicule. I fear that part two is the self-talk that comes with it, like the top, obviously keeping yourself down. So we were seeing the movie on any given Sunday with Al Pacino. James Cameron Yeah. And if you remember, there's a part before the game where they show what I think is one of the wide receivers is standing in front of the mirror, just like looking at himself very intensely and he's like, You are the best wide receiver in the world.

00:06:55:00 - 00:07:13:21
Itamar Marani
You can catch anything. And he's like amping himself up. Just be like, You are the greatest. And in that kind of context, it's like, Oh yeah, of course you should do that. Like, what if we saw that somebody saying, Hey, you're not better than any other wide receiver? Mm. Just be humble. Like, do you think he would perform at his best if that's what he did.

00:07:13:23 - 00:07:34:10
Itamar Marani
Mm. And for some reason in the context of sports, like that's okay and I think in context, otherwise people say that's not okay. In sports there's such a clear whether you win or you lose, that some things just are allowed because it's very clear this is impactful. This is not impactful, it's effective, It's not effective. And I think that's the biggest thing.

00:07:34:10 - 00:07:51:16
Itamar Marani
It's like people their own self-talk because they say, Oh, I'm not better than anybody, then you're not going to go for bigger things than most people. If you're just saying I'm medium or below because I'm not supposed to say I'm better than him or think that I'm better than anybody here by saying I think I say to other people to say to yourself that I'm better.

00:07:51:16 - 00:08:02:03
Itamar Marani
I've done the work to be better. You're not going to go for better opportunities, know I've got to go for bigger things. You're not going to give yourself permission to actually go for it. And I think it's extremely harmful.

00:08:02:05 - 00:08:16:02
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, I've been very guilty of this myself and to realize how detrimental it can be with that intentional downplaying of your capabilities, it's just not it's not productive, it's not helpful.

00:08:16:04 - 00:08:44:23
Itamar Marani
Yeah, I think that humility, the title again, bad humility, ineffective humility. It creates a ceiling for ourselves. It's like why I write all my emails, like I sign off with who dares wins. It's because it's really that. And it's like that whole saying, like he says he can and he says he can't both use it right? It's that like if you're saying I'm not better than anybody else, and you can say that like some people say that, but they don't actually believe it.

00:08:45:00 - 00:08:59:00
Itamar Marani
Like they say, Oh, I'm not better than everybody else. But you can tell they think they're better and that's where they actually give themselves permission to go for bigger and better things. But if you actually say that and you start believing that, yeah, you're going to go for things that are no better than any other people. You're not going to give yourself the opportunity to really go for it.

00:08:59:02 - 00:09:17:06
Itamar Marani
You're going to start diminishing yourself, and then it's going to become this self-fulfilling prophecy as well. And then I've seen that with a lot of entrepreneurs. They're like, Oh, this person should be out tonight, but they're time to look. I'm not better. So let me just go for the second level six opportunity, and then they go for this opportunity that, well, I'm only doing level six opportunities among that good.

00:09:17:06 - 00:09:23:22
Itamar Marani
So then they go to a level five and it becomes this negative spiral downhill.

00:09:24:00 - 00:09:48:02
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, it seems that the same way that affirmations, mantras, etc. might be powerful ways to program the self, the subconscious to believe in something that vocalizing and downplaying yourself can have the opposite effect. And then if you say it enough times, you start to actually believe it to be true.

00:09:48:04 - 00:10:14:22
Itamar Marani
Yeah. Now I think my, my thoughts on this are that I think the reason that this is a taboo one to say that I'm better than other people is because it does initially like on a very base level, it could take away someone's humility. And humility is really, really important in order to grow. And that's why I think there needs to be a dip, a deeper understanding of the language around here, effective humility and ineffective humility.

00:10:15:00 - 00:10:39:18
Itamar Marani
And that's really what I want to talk about in this. Talk like the way I look at it is effective. Humility is one that enables beginner's mind, like we used to call it in the agency and operational curiosity. You don't want to just say, Oh, I'm I'm better. I know everything. It's done. You always want to have that operational curiosity to be able to explore, to see things from a new lens, really have that beginner's mind so you can learn like a white belt mentality.

00:10:39:20 - 00:11:00:02
Itamar Marani
Now, what's ineffective humility is when we say something, but then that makes us feel small and then it acts. Mommy puts ceilings on what we should be able to accomplish and saying, I'm not better than other entrepreneurs. Like, what would that do to my self-image if that's what I keep telling myself? And what would that do to my confidence?

00:11:00:04 - 00:11:12:02
Itamar Marani
And then the goals I go after and ultimately the impact that I'm able to make, like for myself, my life, my family's life. And beyond that, the what's the benefit.

00:11:12:04 - 00:11:34:22
Alexander De Fina
And what kind of people do you attract into your life? I mean, if you're you know, if given the options, if I go to people I can bring into my inner circle person, I believe they're better than other people. A person believes they believe the opposite, that everyone else is better than them. Well, I want to hang around person all day compared to the contrast to the person who doesn't believe that they're enough.

00:11:35:00 - 00:12:01:23
Itamar Marani
Yeah, it's like so I think it's a very extreme example because another extreme example is help articulate principles. So there's a book called If This Is a Man by Primo Levi. He talks about his experience. He was a Holocaust survivor. He talks about experience of the camp in Auschwitz-Birkenau. And it's a very, very interesting book to read. First off, it's very, very well written and it's very recommended about the human condition.

00:12:02:00 - 00:12:27:19
Itamar Marani
And he talks about how the life in the camp was really wild from a psychological perspective because there were no confine like there are in regular society to stop people who are too strong from being tyrants and to also help people who are really weak from just getting overtaken. There weren't those usual like boosters of society to make sure that everyone's taken care of that didn't exist, so you could really see it here.

00:12:27:19 - 00:12:41:23
Itamar Marani
And he said, this one, someone's started appearing a little bit strong. They would gain a lot of power. People would give them power, they would just give it to them. They would assume, Oh, this is a strong person. Let me give them more power. And once someone started showing a little bit of weakness, he was like, That was it.

00:12:41:23 - 00:13:08:13
Itamar Marani
You could see there was a slope and they were going to pass. They weren't going to be able to survive. And it's such an interesting concept when you look at it from that perspective. What you were saying is the person who just has that like again, starts out with the good intention of being humble, but then he just appears to everybody else around him as someone who's not that capable, people aren't going to be drawn to that.

00:13:08:15 - 00:13:18:02
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, I think it's a process of trying to be accurate, being accurate, not embellishing capabilities, but not underplaying them. It's just being accurate.

00:13:18:04 - 00:13:25:15
Itamar Marani
Yeah, that's very well said. So what do you think that line is? How do you do? How do you find that accuracy?

00:13:25:17 - 00:13:47:13
Alexander De Fina
I think the first step would probably be being clear about what the criteria is. So am I capable in this particular area and then trying to do as much of a objective self audit as possible and say, well, you know, is it kind of like the tabletop with the with the legs of a belief, like I believed, I'm above average.

00:13:47:13 - 00:14:12:18
Alexander De Fina
I believe that I've got, you know, elite forces of superior capabilities in this area. And I have evidence to support that belief. Therefore should be confident about that, which is now an empowering sort of frame to approach business in life as opposed to a very subjective, sort of almost defeatist, amplified humility, which I can see as being detrimental.

00:14:12:20 - 00:14:36:20
Itamar Marani
Yeah, I have a different thought on this. So I think it's understanding like again, where is this helping me? It's like, am I? I think a lot of people are bogged down by this. Like, you're supposed to be humble again, that big like mantra that we all know culture. You're supposed to be humble. Like, does that actually serve, you know, which way?

00:14:36:22 - 00:15:06:12
Itamar Marani
And I, I think, again, having that effective humility where it enables you to learn that's great when you have this ineffective, ineffective humility that you think, oh, I should act small. That's when it's a problem. And the reality is you can act very let's call it like like a big person that you are as big as you are and be humble for more knowledge and be curious.

00:15:06:13 - 00:15:08:01
Alexander De Fina
Hmm.

00:15:08:03 - 00:15:29:21
Itamar Marani
It's like I've it was I remember one of the first entrepreneur conferences I ever attended. I was actually going to give a speech there about my lessons from the special Forces and so on, and they had a meeting for all the people that it was their first time attending this community conference. And that was like the very first thing of of that weekend.

00:15:29:23 - 00:15:47:03
Itamar Marani
And I went to it and like they talked a little bit about the community and so on and so on. And then they said, does anybody have any questions? People ask questions. And I raised my hand. I was like, How would you guys I don't I've never done this entrepreneur thing yet. Like, how would you recommend to, like, approach people that are further ahead of me and try to create a connection with them?

00:15:47:03 - 00:16:03:00
Itamar Marani
If you guys have any insights from managing this so long and they give some really good advice and it was interesting. And then one of the other community leaders came up to me like a week later when we were just about in a coffee shop and bumped into each other and he's like, Hey, dude, I thought you were full of shit when you were supposed to give a talk.

00:16:03:02 - 00:16:16:19
Itamar Marani
I was accuses douche bag, the Special Forces guy and all that. But then when I saw you being comfortable enough to ask that and not from a defeated place, but you're like, okay, I know I'm going to succeed in life, but I want more tools. I'm more I'm hungry for that. And he was like, okay, you're probably the real deal.

00:16:16:19 - 00:16:31:16
Itamar Marani
As soon as I heard that, I was like, okay, this guy has something, What's up? And this obviously wasn't my intent to do that, but for me it was a lesson like, Oh, you can definitely be humble. And it actually impressed people. If you're doing it from a place of power.

00:16:31:18 - 00:16:57:13
Alexander De Fina
Have you seen this also play out in some of the clients that you've worked with where they've had a breakthrough, where they have gone from a place of in sector on unhelpful humility, have had an alternative perspective shed and then had a brain break moment and then to see then to take flight in a particular area of their life when that when that sort of baggage of ineffective humility is lifted.

00:16:57:15 - 00:17:18:01
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So I think this is a bit of a different way. So there's not saying like winners win. It's a big one. Like winners when why? Because they decide to be winners and how they're going to win. And I think that's you know, I think that's the shift. I've seen a lot of clients decide to adopt that identity like I'm a winner and winners win.

00:17:18:03 - 00:17:46:09
Itamar Marani
And when someone has that identity, they don't need to do that, in effect, of humility anymore. They don't need to feel like, oh, I need to play small, I need to like be quiet or whatever not I'm a winner. And because I'm a winner, I'm also comfortable. Like I need to ask questions. I need to gain knowledge. But then the person that's sitting across from them and is answering their questions doesn't for a moment think this is a weak individual who thinks, Oh, this is a very hungry individual for knowledge?

00:17:46:11 - 00:18:05:10
Itamar Marani
I think that's really the biggest shift I've seen in a lot of the guys. As soon as they adopt that mentality, they recognize, Oh, I can be a winner and I can be humble and not offend most people, and then I can have that beginner's mind and have everything I like. And it's okay for me to say I think I'm better than most because I choose to conduct myself this way.

00:18:05:12 - 00:18:08:15
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

00:18:08:17 - 00:18:16:08
Itamar Marani
Yeah. Like those were the main topics I wanted to comment on. Do you have anything that you want to add or on this?

00:18:16:10 - 00:18:39:03
Alexander De Fina
I've got a personal anecdote I might have shared with you, but I think I can share for the audience where I had my those sort of transcendent breakthroughs. Please. And it was it was the context was Korea, and it was just after I'd moved to Hong Kong and I had a old client of mine on a phone call, they were asking how things were going in a scrappy startup phase.

00:18:39:03 - 00:19:06:02
Alexander De Fina
I didn't really know anybody and they asked me a very challenging question, which was, Why do I have this fear of success? And I had a great sort of Rolodex of of situations to hit me with where I had worked really hard on a particular project. And then the last minute, when it came time to get the fruits of my labor, I was very quick to hand it off to somebody else.

00:19:06:02 - 00:19:30:11
Alexander De Fina
It's a pause, a project. It's like I, I had this resistance against actually getting financially rewarded from the entrepreneurial efforts I'd made. And I tried to explain to them that I think that this comes from a place of some childhood trauma and not feeling worthy of of financial abundance because there's so many people in the world that don't have anything.

00:19:30:13 - 00:19:59:06
Alexander De Fina
And it was a beautiful one liner that just literally changed my life. And they said, Well, how is keeping yourself or helping anybody? And I just got goosebumps again. It broke my brain and I $1,000,000 in revenue in the next 12 months, but also in personal income in the next 12 months, simply by having my brain broken and realizing that ineffective humility was actually holding me back.

00:19:59:06 - 00:20:24:19
Alexander De Fina
And if I actually wanted to assist people financially, then I needed to sign up for a new cup. And it really helped me break my brain and realizing that keeping myself financially just getting by wasn't helping anybody. And I had these sort of altruistic dreams, but completely incapable of affecting anything because I just didn't have the financial means.

00:20:24:19 - 00:20:32:17
Alexander De Fina
And so that was a really powerful anecdote for me to realize how that had been not serving me for a long time.

00:20:32:18 - 00:20:40:18
Itamar Marani
Why did you feel like you you thought it was a good idea to keep yourself down, like, not on a logical level, but.

00:20:40:19 - 00:21:23:21
Alexander De Fina
At an emotional level. It came from a place of not feeling worthy, came from a place of feeling that. And you've brought this to my attention several times is a feeling that big, a feeling that being powerful is bad. And so I thought that having lots of zeros in the bank account, equal power and power, equals that for I'm better off just to sort of toil and scrap forever, but actually benefiting from that was something which needed to be avoided and slowly realizing that the hypocrisy of my thought that I'm ready to help people financially, therefore I'm going to try to keep myself poor just makes absolutely no sense.

00:21:23:21 - 00:21:31:15
Alexander De Fina
But it just shows you how how that emotional cloud can stop you from saying things, you know, in a logical way.

00:21:31:17 - 00:21:47:01
Itamar Marani
You're in the room. And we had that conversation. Do you think that was also trigger of the other people that that resistance to being powerful? And I felt like that's why I'm not supposed to be able to say that.

00:21:47:03 - 00:22:14:12
Alexander De Fina
Possibly if I if I think through it and the individuals present, it might be true for some of them. I think the social conditioning element, certainly for people like Anthony and myself, I think that we had a I think everyone in the room had had some form of reaction to that, which shows just how powerful this this is, the fact that everyone has a reaction to it and we needed to double click on it and unpack, understand it.

00:22:14:12 - 00:22:39:06
Alexander De Fina
And we've all came to the same realization of how unhelpful that intentional humility has been. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know whether it was more of a social conditioning or whether it was just purely a resistance against power. Maybe a combination of those.

00:22:39:08 - 00:22:59:11
Itamar Marani
Could be an interesting way of think from a social conditioning because, you know, like in Israeli culture, it's the opposite. It's like everyone thinks they should be the CEO. And I that whole like it does seep into the psychology of the culture that like you're the quote unquote chosen people, that you should do big things. And the Jewish mother that always encourages son to like, just go conquer the world.

00:22:59:11 - 00:23:25:21
Itamar Marani
You can be whatever you want to be. And there is a a lot of the the vernacular that I use in English around like playing small and all that. Like, I don't know, the term for that and he doesn't exist. Yeah, it's not, it might exist, but it doesn't come to mind. That's never something that we really talked about.

00:23:25:23 - 00:23:44:04
Itamar Marani
And it is an interesting cultural thing, like it's how we sell a house as he can and he says he can't or both usually. Right. It's that I think a lot of times that humility where it comes from like a good place for trying to be humble and good and kind. What it actually does is it tricks people into saying like, you shouldn't see yourself as really great.

00:23:44:06 - 00:24:00:18
Itamar Marani
You should see yourself as just like, okay, because these years I was great, then you'll be mean to people, so don't do that. But like what we talked about last time, you don't have to be mean to people. If you see yourself as great. If you judge someone is like further behind where you are right now, it doesn't mean you have to be negative to them.

00:24:00:23 - 00:24:15:00
Itamar Marani
It actually means that you could be the opposite. You could have more compassion, more empathy and like how you said, like more altruistic opportunities actually help them. But I think there is a great benefit to saying I'm great.

00:24:15:02 - 00:24:44:17
Alexander De Fina
The great agreed. And I think that there's probably a correlation you can pull it back this up with some data. If you look at those, this country is referring to UK, Australia, Zealand. We've always looked at the and the contrast of this sort of American culture has been that the opposite. You know, Americans at the center stage, I'm great I'm the best in said yes you are, which are the foods whereas Aussies if you say that you know you're half decent at something, you kind of brace yourself for the public ridicule.

00:24:44:19 - 00:25:23:12
Alexander De Fina
Yet there's a entrepreneurial aspirational flight out of those countries. So typically when people want to get ahead, they tend to relocate. Thought of Aussies relocate to Europe, US, Asia and the mental health and suicide rates amongst men in those jurisdictions. In the UK, suicide is the leading cause of death men under 50. Wow. So it'd be very interesting to see if there's a correlation between men's mental health issues and suicide in those countries per capita.

00:25:23:12 - 00:25:36:14
Alexander De Fina
Does it rank hires in countries where they do have a more empowering social conditioning or a culture of pushing each other out rather than trying to kill each other down?

00:25:36:16 - 00:25:52:17
Itamar Marani
Yeah, what you said at the end there was what I was thinking. I was like, Yeah, it makes sense that you would be very unhappy if you felt like you kept that you weren't allowed to rise If you want to naturally rise, but you're not allowed to do that, that would suck. Yeah. There's Chris Williamson. He runs the Modern Wisdom Podcast.

00:25:52:17 - 00:25:53:08
Itamar Marani
Great podcast.

00:25:53:11 - 00:25:54:00
Alexander De Fina
Yes, great.

00:25:54:00 - 00:26:08:08
Itamar Marani
And and I remember seeing a clip of him saying that when he moved from the US to Austin, all of a sudden he had so much more energy. So from the UK to Austin, he had so much more energy because all of a sudden he's like everyone around is really positive and saying like, Go good job and go.

00:26:08:10 - 00:26:20:08
Itamar Marani
He's like, And it felt really nice and it's like, it's a big thing. And I think just again, like that's what we do to ourselves in a lot of ways too, by saying I'm not better than anyone else, we keep ourselves down.

00:26:20:10 - 00:26:44:00
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, that's the reason I left Australia. The reason the reason I left Australia is I was stagnant and I realized that the people around me in the industry that I was in, things were very complacent and trying to innovate was usually met with some level of resistance or confusion. And that's why I packed my bags and, and, and moved to Asia.

00:26:44:00 - 00:27:04:05
Alexander De Fina
And once those wheels were in motion, I lost a good chunk of my friendship group at the time because I couldn't understand it. They saw that my desire to grow and to experience was somehow, ultimately, I could see it for what it is. It was challenging the status quo.

00:27:04:06 - 00:27:05:17
Itamar Marani
Putting a mirror to their face as well.

00:27:05:17 - 00:27:08:01
Alexander De Fina
Of course, apples.

00:27:08:03 - 00:27:32:04
Itamar Marani
And I want to dive dog. I think that's such an important thing to acknowledge and to understand. Even if you do this the exact right way and you are always to tell it courteous and kind and you never come off condescending. You make the effort to never look at people as below you. Some people will still give you a negative reaction.

00:27:32:06 - 00:27:47:08
Itamar Marani
And I think that's something like people have to accept. And from what I've seen, the biggest thing that holds people back from being able to deal with that is that they want people's approval. I want people to like I've seen that so many times in the arena. People said, like, I want you do. I want people to like him?

00:27:47:08 - 00:28:16:02
Itamar Marani
Like who? I don't know. You should be very specific because if you want everyone to like you, there's always going to be those people that would only like you if you stayed small and then disrupt their outlook on the world or their outlook on themselves in relation to the world. Because if we both grew up in the same place and I got to X and you're only at 0.1 X, there's really not a lot of justifications you can give yourself as to why you weren't able to do it.

00:28:16:04 - 00:28:32:16
Itamar Marani
So my presence is going to make you feel very comfortable about yourself. Most people are not aware enough to say, Oh, I'm uncomfortable about myself because Alex is doing so well and I'm not. So I'm saying like, Oh, I don't like Alex, how Alex makes me feel. And because I'm also not mature enough to handle that emotion, I don't like how Alex makes you feel.

00:28:32:16 - 00:28:44:21
Itamar Marani
I'll lash out at Alex for some reason instead of just saying, Why didn't I like how I feel around Alex? What does it say about me? What's really going on here? I should take ownership and accountability.

00:28:44:23 - 00:29:11:09
Alexander De Fina
I've seen that in business circles on more than one occasion where I've got enemies who I've never met before. This there's people who have a real disdain for me. I mean, I've got a lot of bad things I've never even met the more attractive before. And it's very clear in those situations what's going on that they see your success as a mirror to themselves, as as a threat to to, to, to their success.

00:29:11:11 - 00:29:38:19
Alexander De Fina
And so they're in the business of cutting down cars as well and building them. And so it's very easy to see when that when that manifests what's going on. It's also easy to see why people do hold themselves back, because if you're trying to do anything amazing, there's going to be a certain amount of attention, whether you're an entrepreneur, a social worker, etc. and if you're worried about the judgment of people knowing that 49% of people are going to disagree with you on anything, then you know what.

00:29:38:21 - 00:29:41:02
Itamar Marani
I would say, brother?

00:29:41:04 - 00:29:55:23
Alexander De Fina
Yeah. You're not going to take those shots. You're not going to step up. You're going to stay in that comfort zone. Because if you're worried about upsetting people, the people who don't get nothing almost in the first place. Yeah.

00:29:56:01 - 00:30:16:01
Itamar Marani
Yeah. Like I for me, it was very confusing at first. Like when I first started to, like, see more success in various areas in life. Some people who were like very good friends all of a sudden, like I would get weird vibes from them and I was like, Am I doing something wrong here? Is it me? And that was it confusing?

00:30:16:01 - 00:30:35:00
Itamar Marani
I was like, What am I doing here? And my mom actually told me a sentence that was very poignant. She said, You know, a lot of people are going to help you move from a big house to a small one. Very few are comfortable helping you move from a house that's their size to a bigger one. Very few have like the humility to do that, like people.

00:30:35:02 - 00:30:44:06
Itamar Marani
It just too easy for them to feel good about helping someone when he's not doing well. It's hard for most people to root for someone when he's actually doing better.

00:30:44:08 - 00:30:45:15
Alexander De Fina
Yeah.

00:30:45:17 - 00:31:04:23
Itamar Marani
And I think that's the thing. It's like why we can't say to ourselves, like, I'm doing great because we're afraid somebody else will see that and then they'll reject us in some way. But the reality is, like you're saying like, Dude, if you go right now, go and make $100 million. I'll be so happy for, you know, I mean, like, I will root for you.

00:31:04:23 - 00:31:23:12
Itamar Marani
I will go like I will literally go and buy you dinner, even though you just made a hundred million for me. You not have it to celebrate that. But I think that's the rare thing. It's like having that intentionality of saying, Who do I want to actually, like, respect me and I'm okay with everybody else. Having some kind of judgment is so free.

00:31:23:14 - 00:31:40:14
Itamar Marani
And the moment we recognize that, we give ourselves permission. You know what? I am better than most, and I'm comfortable being around other people to say I'm also better than most. And together we're all going to rise really big. And also, while that we recognize that because we want to rise so much, we have to have that effective humility.

00:31:40:16 - 00:32:00:00
Itamar Marani
It's like, have you ever heard of Quincy Jones, the music producer? Yeah, Yeah. We've seen the Netflix documentary on him. No, beautiful documentary. Really worth watching. And there's one point where his daughter asked him like that, like, how come you never had an ego? He said, My goals were too big to have an ego, and he just said it like straight off the cuff, like that.

00:32:00:02 - 00:32:13:15
Itamar Marani
And it's that he was just like, he knows he's great. He's one so many like Grammys. And I mean, he knows he's great, he knows it. But honestly, recognizing if I to keep being even greater, I can't have an ego and that's that effective humility to be able to say I am better than most I choose to be.

00:32:13:15 - 00:32:34:06
Itamar Marani
I aim to be. I make the effort to be. And still my goals are so big that I have to. I can't afford to have an ego. I have to have that curiosity. And I think that's the difference between having effective humility and ineffective humility. It simply keeps you small and makes you feel less than yourself. And then you go for less targets.

00:32:34:06 - 00:32:38:17
Itamar Marani
Smaller targets in a smaller way. Yeah.

00:32:38:18 - 00:32:48:13
Alexander De Fina
So how do we how do we quantify how how do we is there a is there a process of identifying where our humility is effective or an effective?

00:32:48:15 - 00:33:05:13
Itamar Marani
I think sometimes instead of having a complex process, we can just ask about somebody else externally. We take ourselves out of the situation and we don't have like our ego in our emotions, but it's like, okay, if there was a clone of me, is what they're doing now effective or ineffective to get them towards their goals, yay or nay?

00:33:05:15 - 00:33:29:11
Itamar Marani
And usually as soon as we do that, like for me, if I want to sing for a lot of other people, as soon as you use that little trick, yeah, everything is so clear. The good somebody else who wants to achieve in a situation. Why would this behavior be effective or ineffective in helping them get there? And if we say it's ineffective, then okay, then what emotional cue of mine is drawing me to do an irrational thing.

00:33:29:13 - 00:33:44:16
Itamar Marani
Maybe it's a social conditioning, like you said. Maybe it's a fear, whatever it may be. Okay, what is that thing that's causing me to not be able to do the rational thing that I would definitely tell somebody else to do in this situation if they want to succeed. And that's what I see a lot about how the arena works, how the program works.

00:33:44:16 - 00:34:08:09
Itamar Marani
If you notice it, be fairly clear on people what people want, break down, what are the specific actions, the most high impact actions that will get you there. Then why do you feel resistance? And when we do that, we can figure out what are people's like root beliefs or insecurities, fears, doubts, whatever it may be that play up and cause them to not do the thing that will give them the easiest result.

00:34:08:11 - 00:34:31:21
Alexander De Fina
During doing arena And now Elite is really, really helped me understand this. I mean, I've got it tattooed twice on my body as reminders. You know, for me it's a marianne Williamson quote that starts off our greatest fears, inadequate our greatest fears with powerful beyond measure. You've you've challenge me on this several times. I'm sure you feel quite for the challenge me on this level several more times.

00:34:31:21 - 00:35:05:03
Alexander De Fina
But for me, I think it's it's going to be an ongoing process of reminding myself and also recognizing that that it's just exhausting, intentionally downplaying yourself, not know is ineffective. It's just is it's wasted energy. And a real example of how much this has been a challenge for me was when on our last night of the elite event and you were saying something positive about me and it's like some subconscious level.

00:35:05:05 - 00:35:08:14
Alexander De Fina
I almost didn't even want to hear it because I thought, you're talking about.

00:35:08:16 - 00:35:15:19
Itamar Marani
Tom who sext me. So and then I'm like, Why are you ignoring me? Do you?

00:35:15:21 - 00:35:37:00
Alexander De Fina
And it was it was a bizarre moment, but it was almost like at some subconscious level, there's still a resistance against hearing nice things about myself to the point that I was actually taught. You talk about somebody else. Yeah. So it shows you how how deep the clutches of that ineffective humility can be something which I'm still trying to shake off myself.

00:35:37:01 - 00:35:59:23
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So what would you recommend to people? Because I'll be honest, this is not something that I'm grappled with as much. I think perhaps because of the culture and all that, like I've always been perhaps even too comfortable, like going for the big things, even when I wasn't ready. But what would you say someone at home was like, Man, I feel very uncomfortable with this and I don't think I should say I'm better than other people.

00:36:00:02 - 00:36:13:15
Itamar Marani
And I think that's the wrong thing to do. What would you tell them? What would you advise them on how to go about this?

00:36:13:17 - 00:36:45:15
Alexander De Fina
For a person which I've learned from you, which is getting really clear about what it is we're trying to judge in the first place? Because I think that a lot of people are clouded in this sort of overwhelming judgment. It gets very fuzzy. So get clear on this thing. Maybe it's business, maybe it's personal finance, maybe it's social impact, and then start to do a objective as objective as you can, audit of your capabilities.

00:36:45:15 - 00:37:09:02
Alexander De Fina
And I think that the analogy that helps me understand is the table top in the legs. The belief is a table top and then other legs to support it. Have you been recognized for this thing in the past? Have you been successful in the past? Have other people offered you money to advise them? And as you start to stack these table legs, you start to go, Well, this is true.

00:37:09:04 - 00:37:37:19
Alexander De Fina
And what's not true is my ineffective humility. So trying to have a a process of auditing it to sort of weight up is probably where all star run rather than like a a fuzzy mantra or just kind of like a little one liner trying to sort of trick yourself into believing that you're capable. It was just trying to do it really objective self audit.

00:37:37:21 - 00:37:46:00
Itamar Marani
Interesting. So it's basically about it is like recognizing what you have done and then not allowing yourself to downplay it.

00:37:46:02 - 00:37:56:19
Alexander De Fina
Yeah. So let's say that you had a complete identity break and that you now did suffer from an ineffective humility and, you know, having a.

00:37:56:19 - 00:38:19:18
Itamar Marani
Chance to talk about it. Sure. So this is really interesting because you said that like I do, I have that a lot that happens. Like, I also have like days where I don't feel confident, you know what I mean? Like, I just really know. But I think this is so important. So example, like the the reason I remember that scene from any given Sunday when he says I am the best wide receiver in the world is because I do that shit as well.

00:38:19:19 - 00:38:40:23
Itamar Marani
Sorry for my language. I like to, especially before I give like big presentations in front of like audiences that I don't know how they're going to receive it. For example, like last year I gave a talk in front of 300 entrepreneurs all from Asia, and the leader of the conference that he told me before that, Hey man, I, I only really like your stuff, but I don't know how they're going to receive it because it's pretty like advance.

00:38:40:23 - 00:38:56:19
Itamar Marani
And it's not like in the States that hit us. So we'll see. So of course there's going to be nerves there. And I literally went to the bathroom before that and be like and like, just like, look in the mirror. Like, it sounds cheesy as hell, but I was like, Dude, you know, you're shit pretty much better than anyone else.

00:38:56:21 - 00:39:13:15
Itamar Marani
There's no way if the human beings, you're not going to get this like going like shows confidence, fake it a little bit and go do your thing. And I think it's perfectly fine to have that self talk to yourself. It's effective. It's like, why are the guys in the sports where it's so clear there's a winner and a loser?

00:39:13:17 - 00:39:32:09
Itamar Marani
They choose to embrace those tactics. It's a tactic for a more effective output. It's something that I still do to this day. And a lot of times, especially, business is challenging. A lot of times you feel like, Oh, I'm not getting this, this is so confusing. Am I not good at it? But it's not. So that's going to happen.

00:39:32:11 - 00:39:49:18
Itamar Marani
I think sometimes reminding ourselves who we are that I am great at this and I am going to be better and I am a winner and winners win. I will find a way to win. Like, you know it's going to happen if I completely takes over my business, I'll create another business. Why? Because I'm a winner and winners win.

00:39:49:18 - 00:40:14:17
Itamar Marani
That's a decision I've made. Yeah, I've decided to be that guy. And I think this is the big thing. And we can decide to be that guy. Cathy said again in sports, like to be him. I'm him. And that dude. And I think not saying that we deny ourselves the opportunity to really go for things because we set low targets like what I said earlier about that, I sometimes we prematurely went for big targets.

00:40:14:18 - 00:40:33:22
Itamar Marani
I still think I'm better for that because I perhaps overextended myself and had a painful lesson, but I was able to learn because of that and when I learned that lesson, I was able to take it forward again and again and again and again and again. For me, that's the biggest thing to recognize that this is actually impactful, to say it will help you.

00:40:34:00 - 00:40:52:13
Itamar Marani
And yes, you will meet some resistance both from yourself because it feels uncomfortable, because it's against social conditioning or there's some fear, as like you said about that, and you will meet resistance from some group of people. But if you're clear that those group of people are not the ones you actually should care about, you can move past that.

00:40:52:15 - 00:41:09:03
Itamar Marani
And if you choose to do to move past that, to recognize and say to yourself, like, I am going to be great, I am a winner, I'm better than most because I make the effort to be better most. And you combine that with having that humility because your goals are so big that you can't afford not to be humble.

00:41:09:05 - 00:41:09:19
Itamar Marani
You can crush.

00:41:09:19 - 00:41:59:00
Alexander De Fina
Life. Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you think there's a benefit in in calling bullshit on ourselves when that ineffective humility is So let's say I'm on a classic example of this, but if you look at, say, music influencers, maybe those people who had this ineffective humility, this sort of defeatist humility, yet I listen to hip hop songs where there's rappers talking about, you know, all the all the embellishing and insults or they idolize sports stars, Michael Jordan or Kobe or whatever, maybe calling bullshit, saying, you know, being humble, being weak.

00:41:59:02 - 00:42:12:09
Alexander De Fina
I personally benefit really well from being challenged like that is because there's a certain part of me which thinks like a strength. There's some nobility in being humble. And then when someone challenges me, he says, No, you're being a pussy.

00:42:12:11 - 00:42:30:14
Itamar Marani
And basically saying if it's coming from a place of fear, it's basically you're letting fear dictate your life. It's kind of logical like this, the correct thing to do. It's a virtuous thing. Know that you're hiding behind a virtuous mask. But yeah, it's fear that's in the driver's seat. Yeah, And that's such a strong point, you know, And that's the point where I would love to end it.

00:42:30:18 - 00:42:50:15
Itamar Marani
And I think what you said there is just that's the question I would pass on to everyone at home. Is the humility that you're putting on. Is it because you're actually trying to align with a virtue? I mean, it's actually impactful for you and helpful for you and helps the world? Or is it just more convenient? Is it perhaps an easier way to go about things?

00:42:50:17 - 00:43:16:08
Itamar Marani
You don't have to put yourself out there for judgment of others yourself, put yourself in opportunities where you might fail. Is it actually weakness in disguise as a virtue? Yeah. And if that question poked you a lot, that means you should explore it. Like, phenomenal question. Alex So again, guys, I hope this podcast helped. I hope nobody squirmed too much in their seat listening to this, but I think it's a really impactful thing.

00:43:16:08 - 00:43:29:00
Itamar Marani
So and again, if you didn't listen to the one episode we did before this about judging people on why it's okay and what's effective and not effective, please go ahead and do that and I'll give you a lot of context. Aside from that, we will see you on the next episode, guys.