Tough Conversations & How to Assert Boundaries | Elite Performance Podcast #13

Itamar Marani 0:00
Today we're gonna be talking about how to have tough conversations in a productive way instead of getting to arguments, and also how to really assert your boundaries so that you can have a life that you're happy with you don't feel people are encroaching on it. So here's the thing. Often the difference between an argument and being able to have a tough conversation and assert a boundary in a productive way, comes down to two main things. Number one is clarity. And number two is permission. Okay, number one, you have to be clear on what you actually want in life. And why you want that. If you're not clear on that, you can't expect other people to respect your boundaries a because probably, you haven't really told them because you're not super clear on it. And be because even if you've told them, they probably don't really believe it understand why because you don't either. And if you're not fully bought in, you can't expect other people to be bought in. So that's number one, about clarity. And number two, like we said, it's about permission. It's about you giving yourself the permission to speak up and assert yourself instead of holding things in letting them pent up, and then having a blowout. Like, yes, we've been told that letting things slide and compromising is important, but not when it causes resentment or things to pent up. Like, once that happens, that's again when things get very unproductive. And those two main reasons are why see people getting frustrated and feel like their boundaries aren't getting respected, and why they have fights instead of very productive, tough conversations that need to be had. So what we're going to do today, in this podcast, we're going to cover those two things, we're going to deep dive into them. And then at the end of it, I'm going to share a six step framework on just how to have a very tough conversation. But that it will lead towards a happy outcome, long lasting result, instead of just an unproductive argument or fight is gonna go on again and again and again. So with that said, I want to welcome my co host to the podcast, Dr. Emil, welcome aboard.

Dr. Emil 1:42
Hey, guys, I'm looking forward to this one, this is going to be very, very interesting. And I haven't heard the six step framework myself yet. So I'm super intrigued. And at risk of jumping the gun with the permission to speak up, it's also the courage to speak up, a lot of people have have deep issues with that. And also being open to the fact that people can disagree with you. And that's okay. But I won't get ahead of ourselves. So yeah.

Itamar Marani 2:13
Those are big things that we're going to talk about today. And the reason we're doing this podcast, because a lot of people asked about it. We did an old podcast about boundaries in the foundations podcast back in the day. And also what I see with a lot of people who asked me about certain things about mindset. They're asking all these questions. But at the end of the day, what they really want to say is, how can I have a tough conversation and say, what I really want in life to someone who I care about and is afraid is not going to accept that? Or they're just I'm trying to, but they're not respecting? What do I do? And that's why I think this is such an important issue. That's why I want to cover today. So with that said, let's get rolling. So the first thing, I think, in order to have a tough conversation, you have to take responsibility. The first rule, whatever you want to call it is that it's on you to have the tough conversation. You can't wait for someone else to do it. And yes, you have to understand there's a right time and a right place. But you can delay these things forever. It's also understand that if the other party is not willing to have a conversation about your boundaries, that is a boundary in and of itself that's getting breached. And yes, we do want to be sensitive to things because we want this to be a productive conversation. We don't want to catch people off guard, we want to do in the right time, right place. But again, it can't be prolonged forever. Because that mean, again, like your boundaries aren't being respected. Literally. I mean, I'll go ahead, if you want to jump in.

Dr. Emil 3:32
Yeah, that's that's huge. Avoiding tough conversations is is a red flag, you know, they have to, they have to be had. And just wanted to add as well. Finding the right time and place is important. But you have to be so careful not to use that as an excuse to continually delay it. And honestly, for most of us, I would err on the side of just having the tough conversation rather than waiting for a perfect time. Honestly, there is no perfect time. And just be careful with looking for it because it's an excuse. It's procrastination.

Itamar Marani 4:12
Yeah, I think it's great that you said that, honestly, that wasn't thinking about it. But most people it probably is their default to avoid it. So try to correct that default. And with that said, what I would also add is that I don't like to just try to confront someone and be like, Hey, let's have a tough conversation. Let's sit down. Let's mean, you got to talk something out right now. What I think is gonna lead me into talking about this more in the framework is I'd love to tell you, hey, Emile, there's something on my mind. Like I want to bring this up. I think it might get a bit heated. Would next Friday. be okay for you? Is that a time where you can have a time in place and we can talk about this and you can really think about this like a frog. Why does this upset you? Go for it.

Dr. Emil 4:52
Hey, that I want to have a heated conversation with you, but I'm not gonna do anything until next Friday. Until next week. Okay,

Itamar Marani 5:01
first off, I disagree. Because again, it's like what I think one of the main reasons that conversations turn into arguments is because people get defensive. And I think one of the main reasons people get defensive is because they feel like they get ambushed or caught off guard. And if I can tell you like a meal, like, we have this thing we need to talk about, it's around this subject, let's not get into it. It's around the subject. I have some points I want to bring up. But I also want you to think if you have some points you want to bring up because maybe I'm not seeing everything correctly. That sets the table for us to know that we're going to have a conversation, not for you to feel like, oh, Itamar just came and bombed me with something. And just that can make the whole difference.

Dr. Emil 5:41
I agree. And I think even then saying, you know, when would suit you to have this conversation? I mean, next Friday, I don't know when next Friday is, but I think dropping that bomb and then saying it's going to be in three, four or five days time means it's going to be shipped for five days, people are going to build it up in their heads. And it might actually be fine. Because even saying it's going to be heated might be your projection. It might not be heat might just be Oh, yeah, that's so setting the stage there. Look, I have we have to have a conversation would be great if we could sit down at some point when suits you. It Two weeks. Two weeks is that 100%?

Itamar Marani 6:18
Oh, my God, I actually I agree with you. And I'm going to take it back. I don't think we should say we need to have a heated conversation. But I think it is fair to say I think we didn't have tough conversations about subjects. It's important to both of us that we've been butting heads a little bit, I think saying that it does set the stage in a way where both parties don't feel ambushed. And I think that's super important.

Dr. Emil 6:37
Yeah, and even being more specific and saying, This is what the conversation is about broad area, when when suits you to talk about it. I think doing it sooner rather than later. Makes sense? Because then you're it's everything is out in the open. It's not like I have an industry conversation, which is going to be rough. I'll tell you in two weeks time.

Itamar Marani 6:55
Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. That's not usually how I roll. I've seen that actually be successful. But hey, I want to talk about like, there's this issue. I think we have an issue, working talk about in place. And you're like giving somebody a general idea of here's what I want to talk about. It's around this subject. That does help. Because again, I think if both parties come from a place of missing ahead of time, Hey, man, I want to have a productive conversation and think it's going to be tough. But I want you to also like come prepared, not feel like I'm ambushing you. So is this a good time, this is not when would be a good time. Let's settle on that. And that also, again, it just it avoided the name because somebody's feeling ambushed. And this immediately going off the rails.

Dr. Emil 7:32
agreed and again, ambushing someone like if you want to ambush someone, you can ambush someone and that that makes them feel ambushed. But I think if you don't intend on ambushing someone then it should be okay. And there's the book which I was talking to you about just before the we started recording no rules rules, the Netflix book about how the culture in the book, they talk about radical candor. And they say you should bring up feedback whenever is most appropriate. And that might be immediately. And as long as you build a culture of that within the it might be immediately it might not as long as you build a culture of that, then it's expected and people close to you people you care about, which is what we're referring to here. You should have a culture of not difficult conversations, but frank conversations, right?

Itamar Marani 8:30
Yes, I'm saying this with an asterix, and I agree with you. But what can you were saying earlier, it's not about wanting to ambush people. It's that without you intending to ambush people, people can feel ambushed. If they're not prepared, that's the thing. It's not even about like my intention could be 100% Pure, come to you and be like me, let's have a conversation. I want to talk to you about this, this and this. We need to have this candid conversation. But if you're at a certain way today, and you're just caught off guard with this is the third thing that already kind of messed up your day, you're not going to be in a place where we can be productive right now. And even if I just say, can we just have about this tomorrow? Do you have time tomorrow to talk about something? They okay, I appreciate you them are coming to me and also respect from my viewpoint on this. I think this is a different starting point.

Dr. Emil 9:14
Yeah, agreed. And you know, what, gone through

Itamar Marani 9:17
the time sensitivity is is important, obviously, but I think sometimes we overestimate and again, like what I said at the beginning, people get to a point where it is time it's very time sensitive to them, because it's already been pent up so much. That's the problem. But if you can surface these things before you're pent up, I can give you a week. I'm not going to be that bothered. But if I've already like had it up to here because I kept suppressing and suppressing and suppressing and I'm about to blow out. That's the problem. Like with within business, it's different. We do have sometimes projects that are crucial that are less than personal life. I've rarely seen this need to be a today or now kind of thing. You Yeah, fair.

Dr. Emil 10:02
Yeah. And you know what the time thing and the boundaries work both ways. You say, Hey, can we have a conversation? And I say, awesome. Yes. I don't want to do right now, because I'm super pumped up about something. So how is tomorrow? I appreciate this needs to be done sooner rather than later. House tomorrow morning. And I think that works. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 10:23
Perfect. Cool. So I think we've covered the first part that it's on you to have a tough conversation, and you can't wait for somebody else to bring this up. You have to bring it up. But you have to do it in a way that's actually going to be productive, not just because you've had enough. Okay, so that's number one. Any questions on that? There's a couple of touch points on do this episode.

Dr. Emil 10:43
No, I mean, I like that.

Itamar Marani 10:45
Great. So too, is somebody getting upset because you're having a tough conversation does not mean you're a bad person. That's what we talked about permission. It's their decision. If you do things correctly, it's still their decision, whether they're gonna get upset or not. And you don't have to equate somebody else getting upset of you asserting a boundary or having a tough conversation to mean that you're doing something bad or a bad person. This is a really big thing. So beyond the courage, like you said, it's courage. I agree with you. I think before the courage is people understand that just because somebody might get mad because you did something, doesn't mean that you're at fault here. If this needed to be said, and you made all the efforts to say it in the right way. It's not your fault if they get upset. And that shouldn't be an indicator that oh, I'm doing something bad here.

Dr. Emil 11:38
Yeah, so you know, I agree with this wholeheartedly, I think this is great. And what I would add to that is to say that, as long as you say it in the right way, as long as you have the intent to say in the right way, you still might say it in the wrong way. So you can always improve how you put things forward. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's on the other person, as they get upset that that is on them. But you have to with all intention. frame it in. Yeah, in the best way possible.

Itamar Marani 12:10
And I think it's a dance, it's about it is really trying to understand how the person is going to react, anticipating that. And also like, again, the whole painting up stuff, it's so crucial, because if you're at a point where you're already at, you're like, that's your end of it emotionally, whatever it may be your patience, whatever it may be. If someone if you say something to someone and they react, you're like, you don't have any more capacity for it. Because they've already taken everything you're at the end. However, if you can bring this up, when it just starts being a bit of a problem, instead of waiting to have that tough conversation. Even if you start something and they give you something back that's a bit overwhelming, negative, whatever it may be, or they have a bit of their own emotions come out at you, you're not going to be a place where you're just like, you also go off the rails, because you still have capacity for them. And you can still conduct the conversation, you can lead the conversation in a productive way. However, if you wait until it's like you're just at the end of it, and then you kind of explode and say, like respect me do this, do that, whatever it may be, like, you're not going to have the space for that anymore. And that's a big realization people need to have, the sooner you can have this tough conversation, the more likely it's going to lead to success on so many fronts.

Dr. Emil 13:25
And to add to that, the sooner you can have it and honestly, the more conversations you can have. Because if this this is the relationship that you care about, you've been in the vicinity of this person for a long time, the chances are, this isn't the first or the last you've had and the 10th tough conversation will be infinitely better than the first. Now if you've spent your whole life suppressing these conversations, then yes, the first one is going to be tough and jarring. But if this is the conversate a relationship or conversation that you value, then you need to get the reps in and you want to get to that 10th 50th 100th tough conversation. Because tough doesn't mean bad. Tough means both sides, relaying their their boundaries and their desires and their wishes, which is fundamental to a good relationship, whether it's working, whether it's personal, whether it's whatever.

Itamar Marani 14:18
Yeah, and I think what you said there at the end, like for me, that's the key of it. Once you get to that, like 1050s conversation, whatever it may be, people also don't realize that this is about to be a deal breaker. I think a lot of times you see this in romantic relationship, and we're very young, we've all had this like in our early 20s and our teens, that whatever somebody says something like, oh, no, this is going to end we're going to enter a big fight. It's got to be crazy. But like as adults were able to have these conversations, we realize this is just another like, just another thing we do. We certainly need to talk about tough things, but doesn't necessarily mean that there's going to be a blowout. And the more you can add to the cabinet as part of your rhythm that you just talked about the tough things. There's less emotionality there because there's less possible implication and fears around what this tough kind of Session might allude to it might mean that it starts being this is just a problem I have here instead of, I have a problem with you, which is very, very different.

Dr. Emil 15:10
Yeah. And it's about getting the reps in, like, yeah, the first one feels like it's a, you know, about everything. And then by the time you get to the 10th 50th, it's like, okay, we've done this before, I know how this works.

Itamar Marani 15:23
Well, I think also the first one, if you don't never do it, it could be about everything. That's the problem. It could be you pet it up so much. And that's like the reality of it. That's why it's so hard to have these conversations, if you don't have them often, because you pent up so much, and all of a sudden, it's just a blow out about everything. And if it's about everything, it just gets really chaotic. So people fight. And they have these big arguments that are not like, it's not about washing the dishes, so to speak. It's about everything. Yeah. And the thing is, if you're able to have these conversations as they arise, you can really succeed. Now, in order to have that this kind of little segue into the second part, you have to get really clear on what you want. That's the reality. Like, if you're not really clear on what you want, and what your boundaries need to be, of course, they're gonna get tested, of course, you're not gonna get respected. And that's what we have to think about personal responsibility. It takes time, it takes effort to get really clear on what we want, and say, these are boundaries that I'm okay with, like, honestly, it is okay, like bending them a little bit. And these are things that I'm absolutely not okay with, these are red lines from. And I think most people don't have that in their back pocket, they're not really clear about what they want. And then they get frustrated when people don't respect the quote unquote, value of this, even though it's not really about it. Some of them they don't like.

Dr. Emil 16:38
Yeah, we mentioned this on a previous podcast, maybe it was the previous one on emotional fortitude, where we talked about not compromising on core values. And it resonated with some people, because they got back to me about it. But firstly, you need to identify what your core values are, rather than broad preferences. And then, you know, drawing a line there, and and communicating them clearly. Because people don't know if people don't know what they are. Yeah, it's going to, they're going to breach them.

Itamar Marani 17:08
Here, it's like it's, it's so interesting to hear so many people that say they get into fights, workplace, personal life, everything and everywhere. Because somebody didn't do something that they should have done, or they were told to do, very clearly told to do, but they should have done. And it's like all these assumptions and assumptions and assumptions. And like, I agree with what you're saying, it's like if you've never defined your core values, you can't expect someone to understand your boundaries, because you don't really understand them either. You haven't given this enough thought. And like, we talked about this as well, when we were sitting at dinner, we had dinner in Croatia, and there was a lot of people there, like they were drinking, some people were doing drugs, whatever it may be, and this is an entrepreneurial event. And some people were like, oh, no, I don't want to try. And then someone's like, oh, just go ahead and do it. Try it that did that kind of like push on them. And I wasn't even asked if I want to try. Nobody else did the whole event anything. And I think it's just because it's so clear that this doesn't fit for me, guys. It's so clear, people can just see it in the blink test. That's because I've really defined what I want and what I don't want. These people were just like, Mmm, maybe I don't want to try it yet. So people could see that without them saying a word people can see that can see right through that. So like, Okay, this is a boundary that's not really there. Let me just try to push through it. Because I want them to try it. I think it's cool, whatever it may be. Like, I think it's a really big thing. It's like if you're not sure about it, but why this is how you want to live your life or whatever it may be. You can't expect people to respect it. Because you don't either really.

Dr. Emil 18:43
An interesting addition to that is, the more clear you are with your own values and boundaries, the earlier in a relationship, you will set them and the easier it is to then continue to have conversations around them. Whereas if it's a relationship of 10 years where you haven't set these up until now, yes, it's going to be hard and jarring to suddenly set them and voice them. But it still needs to happen. But it's going to be tough. But if you do it from the beginning, it's infinitely easier.

Itamar Marani 19:15
I'll say even more than them. And it's almost once you're really, really super clear on your own. You don't really have to set them almost, they're so evident to the other party. You know what I mean? Someone again, is trying to be the minimum level of receptiveness. It's called it just it's so evident and clear that this is how this person operates. It's what's important to them. This is what they're not willing to tolerate. That people don't try pushing certain bugs, because they're like they just can see from a mile away. This is not a button worth trying to push. I'm not going to waste my fe.

Dr. Emil 19:44
But then, I mean, the point of this podcast is about the tough conversations. And I imagine the tough conversations are the ones where it is, you know, a period into a relationship where you're suddenly like, Okay, I've now set my boundaries or I've suddenly need to talk about something. That's a tough conversation. and because of the delay.

Itamar Marani 20:04
I think people's main problem, honestly like in this isn't just about boundaries, what we're doing today in the podcast is that they're not willing to have the tough conversation with themselves first.

Dr. Emil 20:14
Boom,

Itamar Marani 20:16
I think that's a really big thing is like, you have to have that tough conversation with yourself, say, What do I want? What am I willing to say? I don't want what I'm also willing to say, I'm not going to tolerate and accept that some people are going to say, Okay, well, I do want this. So there is going to be consequence to me saying that. People First have to have this tough conversation with themselves, even if they're in a relationship for 20 years. But all of a sudden, they need to have like that tough conversation with themselves first, they didn't ever have that. And they've been a witness the conversation, the nude, the hat. And I want to say this, like, it doesn't mean they're a bad person also for not having this conversation. Because I've met some really exceptional humans that just have never thought about this, we're never aware that this is something I should be doing. So yes, 20 years into a marriage, they have to have this conversation with themselves, and then they have to bring it up with their partner. And I'll be honest, sometimes it goes to the marriage becomes amazing. And also at times that leads to divorce. But in my opinion, it's it leads to happier place regardless, because people are more in line with their truth. And from what I've seen all parties that were lovers become happier.

Dr. Emil 21:27
Yeah, and you know, what you said, being clear with what you want, being clear with what you don't want and being clear with what you're willing to sacrifice for what you want. Because as you say, that it might end in divorce, it might end in a beautiful relationship. Is that something you're willing to sacrifice? I mean, that's a very heavy conversation and a very heavy example. But when you when you lay down the line of your core values and things which are non negotiable for you, then potentially people will leave? Or, you know, maybe it's a work relationship or something like that.

Itamar Marani 22:07
Yeah, I think it's fine. It's like, I think that's the right long term thing to do. It's like people may leave your workspace, like if you share with them, your company values, your core company values that align with it. They might leave honestly, I think that's probably they should leave. Yeah, it's like I think a lot of times not having these tough conversation. It's like, you're not just delaying the inevitable, you're making the situation worse. Yeah, this is not a situation that fits. It's not a fit. You asserting boundaries is not about you. You're trying to engage with someone in conflict. It's about you trying to assess, are we a fit? Because this is how I want to live my life? And are you okay with that? And let me hear what your boundaries are. Let me see if I'm okay with that as well. What makes sense for you? And this is business the same thing as like a boss employee, it's the same thing. These are the boundaries, it's how we conduct ourselves in the business. Does this make sense? For us? It's a fit for us the kind of culture the kind of environment you want to be it? Yes, phenomenal? No, well, let's move you to a place where both of you can be happy and we can be at That's it. It's like I like I'm an evolved, said it. He has this, his whole life manifesto under their company. And he's like we ship. We ship things very fast, we ship things that aren't baked, so on and so on. And it's like, and if you're somebody who doesn't like to ship products, before they're fully baked, find a different place to work, this is not for you, you'll be happier somewhere else will be happier, someone's This is very clear. Because I'll say like you're a bad person, it's like, you'll be happier, somewhere else will be happier. That's it.

Dr. Emil 23:34
And by not setting those boundaries and communicating them, clearly, you're essentially accepting a six out of 10, seven out of 10, life business, whatever, because you're allowing some incongruence in congruence in relationships. Whereas if you say, Okay, well, if this doesn't work, then it doesn't work move to somewhere better than you're moving towards a 10 out of 10, you're moving towards a hell yeah. And it's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to be difficult, there's going to be bumps, but that is what you are shooting towards 10 out of 10. And when you look at it like that, the risk is that you you may hit 10 out of 10 That's the risk, and you may have to have a tough conversation to get there. So let me

Itamar Marani 24:17
ask you this man, what do you think in your opinion stops most people from doing this because I have my my philosophy on this.

Dr. Emil 24:24
It's that short term discomfort. It's the short term discomfort of having to do that and to risk people not liking them to risk people rejecting them to risk the unknown. When logically, you know that in the long term, this is the right thing that is going to happen. This is potentially going to create 10 out of 10. But it's the short term discomfort the short term unknown. That's my theory. I think it's my experience, y'all tell me

Itamar Marani 24:52
and I wonder if you'll resonate with this as well from your experience like what I've learned like this. I think it's people lack of self belief and self worthiness issue. In the run themselves, and it's hard for me it's like, am I actually like, first off? I'm ever gonna get a 10 out of 10? Or am I just a six out of 10? Person life? So I should just accept six out of six out of 10? level things? And is it okay for me to do these things? Like, is it okay for me to set an ultimatum? This means that I'm a bad or selfish person. And I'm already just like a six out of 10 in life. So if I'm being bad or selfish, or people just got to reject me entirely, like, am I gonna find something else, I need better a better employee, because I'm not a good enough leader as is. So if I assert my boundary here with them, I say this is a tough conversation we need to have because you're not doing work, are they going to leave it and never find somebody else? In a personal relationship, if I saw my boundary, well, nobody except me as I am, like, this person's kind of attractive, kind of good looking. And they're better than what I've had so far. So I should kind of live with this. Like you're smiling, because we've all seen that. We've all seen this in our friends, and lots and again, in ourselves as well, when we were younger. And I think the main constraint on a lot of people doing this is their self belief in themselves, that it's okay for them to do this, and that they're worthy or deserving of having a better life. And it's possible for them. And they just have to accept this six out of 10, as you call them. Yeah.

Dr. Emil 26:16
It's accepting crumbs when you deserve the whole cake.

Itamar Marani 26:20
It's accepting that you might deserve the whole cake. That that might be something for you, too.

Dr. Emil 26:27
That's this fear that you don't deserve the whole cake is fear that you're not worthy of the whole cake. Yeah. But yeah, this is the fear of unworthiness. This is the fear of uncertainty. These are the core fears which we saw, essentially. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 26:44
So let me ask this, like the you said before the podcast, I'm just kidding. I'm saying this. But this is something that you've also had your challenges with having tough conversations and what have been your main like, issues around this? Why do you think you haven't been able to have them? And why? Why earlier as well, before you worked on yourself and all that? What were the main issues that caused you to be able to do this?

Dr. Emil 27:03
Yeah, it was 100% Fear of rejection, both in terms of relationships and work settings, I mean, not to bang on about the arena. But I did the arena last time, and it was all about having a mask, wearing a mask, fitting myself around what other people wanted compromising my boundaries, and a fear of not getting what I thought I wanted, if I didn't compromise my boundaries. And in the last 12 months, I've gone, like, ironclad on those things. And my life has totally changed for the better, like, ridiculously so but then this is what I've been doing. I've been setting my define my boundaries first, and then set them early, both in work and intimate relationships gone.

Itamar Marani 27:48
Correct me if I'm wrong, but first off, you define what you really want it and then the downstream effect of that was you having boundaries? Is that correct?

Dr. Emil 27:54
Exactly. Define what I wanted, and then the values, and then the boundaries? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And then I started having those tough conversations. Early, immediately. And yeah, there were some relationships where it was already some way in, and I just had to have the conversation. And it was jarring and hard. But then there were new relationships, which I formed again, work and kind of intimate relationships. I don't know what the word is, where I just started having the conversations early. And at first, it was terrifying. And then over time, I realized that when you have them from the beginning, it's actually really, really easy. Because this is all people know of you. They just know that you set the standards that this is what you want. And people respect that people really move towards that again, both professionally and personally. Yep. And it did, but I knew that's a paradox. 100% of people

Itamar Marani 28:49
don't I don't think that's actually the truth, but it absolutely is.

Dr. Emil 28:54
Yeah, and honestly, like watching watching you set boundaries has been one of the templates for that. And I don't just want to be blowing smoke up your ass but watching you set this boundaries has been, you know, okay, well, people don't hate Itamar. But then, he has really soon there's a very small dude. But there's

Itamar Marani 29:15
a very well, that's the thing though. That's, it is important to say though, a very, very small minority don't like and you've seen this, like, I can poke certain people the wrong way. And I'm okay with that. Like, I'm not trying to be intentionally like, whatever it may be. But some people are just gonna have different opinions. And

Dr. Emil 29:32
they don't like you. They don't like how you make them feel. Yeah, and that's on them.

Itamar Marani 29:37
Yes. Again, like I try to be courteous and don't try to do that intentionally. But I'm also not going to change myself for other people's sake. Yeah, what but what I'm saying here is that, me accepting that that really is freeing in order for me to assert boundaries, to say, You know what, I'm gonna know that for some people. Like I said, I'm not going to be a fit. I don't need to be a fit for everyone. And I think that is what allows me to be comfortable setting my boundaries and be like, Okay, I'm gonna put onto the world very clear, like, these are the kinds of boundaries that I have. And these are the kinds of people that I want to track. Because and I think it makes again, the need almost for having tough conversations less. So

Dr. Emil 30:17
I've got a great example of this, if you don't mind me sharing, Lutz and I, I copied. So we were at a dinner entrepreneur dinner, and it was outside and someone asked, Do you mind if I smoke? And the first few of us sitting next to the guy were like, Yeah, whatever. And you went straight in was like, no, actually, I'd rather you didn't thanks. And that was just incredible. It was like, great. It's like, actually, I really don't want this guy next to me to smoke. And then you had that tough conversation and you set your boundary and the guy was like, Yeah, okay, fine. I mean, he was probably annoyed because he assumed he wanted he was going to be allowed to, but whatever. And then I literally recently, three weeks ago, four weeks ago, some guy next to me at a brunch place in Lisbon, said, Hey, do you mind if I smoke? And I was like, actually, I'd rather you didn't. And I was terrified. I could. It's like, whoa. And I felt awkward the whole time. While I was sitting next to me, he wasn't smoking. But I was just like, just. And little things like that. It's courage in the moment to have these ridiculous I mean, that was nothing. It was such a nothing conversation. But it was a tip on the balance of courage in these moments to live a 10 out of 10 life because I don't want that guy smoking next to me. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 31:33
Yeah. I hear you said this. Like, I really do see it as that being able to have your own boundaries and be clear on them and then have the tough conversations when needed to serve them. I think it's, it's a fundamental thing. In order to have a 10 out of 10 life, as you said. Do you agree?

Dr. Emil 31:54
100%. Like that guy smoking next to me would have been six out of 10 at best.

Itamar Marani 31:59
Cool. All right. So I think we got to wrap something up here. I think we talked about a lot. I want to give the framework you call if we move on? Or is there anything else you want to touch?

Dr. Emil 32:07
On? I love I'm looking to here, I've got my pen ready? Okay, so

Itamar Marani 32:11
I would call it like a six step framework. Alright, so how to have a tough conversation, it's a skill. And with any skill, if you have a framework, you're more likely to see success. So first, you got to get clear on what you want. Okay, both at a high level of like, what your end goal is? And also just, what do you want? Specifically, what are the things that you want? And you have to have number two, after that an honest conversation with yourself, about what your boundaries are? And what you're willing to accept? What you're not willing to accept? Okay, then you have to figure out, what do you really want to get out of this conversation? What do you really want to accomplish? Like, obviously, sometimes people want to vent. Sometimes people want to be understood, to be feel heard. Sometimes it's to solve a problem. To to get very clear, and very honest, like, what are you actually trying to accomplish here? That you can't bullshit yourself and saying, I want to have a conversation. But in reality, you just want to vent at somebody. It is absolutely fine to say somebody hey, like, I want to talk something through. I just want to be heard about this. I'm struggling with it. That's okay, too. But you got to recognize what you're doing. Okay, clear here so far. Yeah. Right. Next thing you got to do. You got to give yourself permission, and accept that people might get angry, or leave, or whatever it may be, and make peace with that. How are we talking about understanding that it's not going to be a fit for everybody? You have to accept that ahead of time. And you were talking a lot about courage Emil like that. Like that's, that's the saying, like, I don't want you to smoke here. What you're basically saying in that moment is like, even if this person says, You know what, I really don't like your meal. Because he's not operating, apprehensive to my whims or whatever it may be. That I'm actually perfectly okay with it. You have to go with that. Does that sound accurate?

Dr. Emil 34:09
Yeah. I mean, I was struggling with that. But it was okay with it. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 34:15
You're worried that I'll get

Dr. Emil 34:16
better over time for sure.

Itamar Marani 34:18
Yeah, it's a skill. Again, it's it's a skill. It's like when people go out to go to the gym for the first time, their muscle ache, and they're like, oh, this was unpleasant, then you're like, No, there's actually fine. It's perfectly fine. They're actually enjoy this. Get the reps in. Yep. Next thing is you have to take responsibility to have a conversation and deliver in a receptive manner. Not out of pent up frustration and anger. And again, like, Time and Place is important. But you can't use that as an excuse to put things off. So you have to figure out when you're going to do it, you have to do in the right way, in a way that they can receive it Not a way where you can just vent out. If your goal is to do something productive. It's not about you saying what you need to say. It's about you allowing them to hear what they need to hear in a way they need to hear in order for you guys to get the outcome together that you want. Taking responsibility for that again. Is it clear so far? Yeah. And then I think the way to really make sure this stuff lasts, is to one, ask your permission to check them on the rise to get Okay, are you clear on what boundaries? Or what I wanted to have this tough conversation about? Like, yes, about subjects XY set? Cool. These are the ways that I feel like this isn't being respected. If I noticed them, can I bring them up with you? And they'd be like, Yeah, okay. Yep. That's part one, part two about that is asked him, What would be the best way for me to bring this up to you can just straight up say, Hey, you're doing this thing? What would be better for you? Like, for example, what I've learned, one of the things that pains me the most, in my relationship with my wife, is that what I want to say these things that bring it up to her, we have a phenomenal relationship, or level of conversations, a level of transparency, everything. But the thing that pains me the most, that when I want to remind her of something, instead of it's not effective when I just tell her, Hey, you're doing this thing again. But it is really effective, and really annoying for me to have to say, hey, when you do this, and makes me feel like this, like that. But it really works. And that's something that she has explained to me, like, if you say it in this way, it will be effective. So I also take responsibility and say, if I wanted to be effective, I got to do it away, that might not be the most convenient for me. Any questions about that framework?

Dr. Emil 36:55
Yeah, that last one. What? What's that called? What's the summary of that? Because you split it into parts, but what I put close the loop for follow up.

Itamar Marani 37:04
Okay. Basically, I would ask that again, far felt like I called it permission to check, and how to check. But I'd love to hear how you summarize it, man.

Dr. Emil 37:15
Yeah, so I've got the steps. And step one, define what you define what you want, define the end goal, and specifically what you want. In the situation, seconds, have the honest conversation with yourself. Regarding boundaries, what is acceptable, what isn't? Three, what is the goal of the conversation, what outcomes you want, and here, I just want to,

Itamar Marani 37:40
I want to have something to actually tell me if you're struggling with number two, it could be again about like, if you're not willing to assert certain boundaries, ask yourself why that is, you have issues around your self worth, when you feel like you just need to subject yourself to six out of 10 life or whatever it may be. If that's what's going on, you stop, you don't advance you don't collect 200 bucks. That's when you stop and focus on

Dr. Emil 38:01
number two is a whole a whole thing, right? Being able to have honest conversations with yourself regarding boundaries and why you can't set the boundaries that you want. Everyone can do step one, what do I want in life, blah, blah, blah, right? Shut down. It might not be big enough, but at least you can do that. But then why? You don't have the boundaries to achieve that is a whole conversation. Number three, then what is the goal of the conversation? What do you what outcome Do you want to achieve? And here, I just want to add that you have to be careful that it's not your ego talking here. It's not that you want to show who's boss it's not that you want to one up someone or make them feel like shit, it's what is the positive outcome that you want to achieve according to your boundaries, which are according to your goal, and just that nothing else? Yeah. Then accept that people might. Gone?

Itamar Marani 38:54
Can I Can I add something to what you said? It's almost the opposite of ego. It's like when you're having these tough conversations, you have to come from a place of almost compassion, of not trying to like wind or pursue. Yeah, there's almost basically the opposite. I just wanted to add that, but I think you said a very, very well.

Dr. Emil 39:10
It is the opposite of ego, you just have to check that ego because it's so easy to feel self righteous and want to like, dominate. But it's like, let's chill the fuck out. What do you actually want to achieve? And how can you do that in a way that both people win.

Itamar Marani 39:23
And I think that's why it's crucial to do this as soon as possible now that I keep doing this, do not let things pent up, because once or that you're not going to be in a place that you're able to do

Dr. Emil 39:31
that. That's just the reality. Yeah, yeah. And then accept that people might get angry. And if you've done the first three steps, right? Ultimately, it doesn't matter if they get angry because you This is you. This is you and your Rauris truest self, it is what it is if they reject that, awesome, that's you leveling up from six out of 10. I mean, you still want to put it in such a way and this is the next step. Take responsibility.

Itamar Marani 39:58
I want to say what One more like Nuance I'm sorry, I'm interrupting you. But this I think is actually a it's a good nuance to say, it's like you're leveling up from six out of 10. And you're also giving them the ability to level up six at a time. Yeah, yeah, they're gonna ask you something that's a better fit, and you're gonna find that everyone's gonna be just have a better fit in their lives.

Dr. Emil 40:18
Yeah, they may not see it, they may not see it in the moment, but I probably won't is ultimately the case. No, they probably won't. But that's fine. Yep. It's that's not on you. But what is on you is for you to take responsibility to have the conversation and convey this properly. In terms of the right convert the right context, the right setting the right words. And also this is a skill. And you'll be shitted it when you start if you've been building it up for a long time. So it might not go well. It's like going to an archery range and expecting to hit bull's eyes. No shit, you're missing. It's a skill, you'll get better. And then the last one is just closing the loop for follow up. And this will I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, this will be dependent on the conversation because if they've gone mad, asking them how best to call them out in the future, it's not probably the thing to do. But generally, as these conversations get better than Yes, asking them, you know, how you would like to communicate regarding this in the future is very, very sensible. It brings them into it, it gives them a say in how to continue having this empowers them.

Itamar Marani 41:27
I think what you said here is actually very interesting. Like even if this conversation ends in a blowout appearance where you kind of said, yeah, you have to also accept that this might be a series of conversations. Boom, yeah. And that's a part of it. You have to keep keeping that like kind of heat check. Where is this person? Are they in a receptive place? Great, we can continue? Have they closed out? Are they getting too emotional, we can't talk about this anymore. Let's back off, let's go off, maybe we'll do this again later on. So it might also recognizing that it's going to be a series of conversations, perhaps. And I think that again, that you don't need to get upset about, it's part of the process. And especially, like you said, this is your first time doing it, you're not going to lead a tough conversation, so masterfully that after one go, everything is going to get resolved, like accept and expect that people are going to get a little bit heated, perhaps you're going to get a little emotional or getting a little bit sidetracked and unfocused. So maybe a series of conversations, I think understanding that can also be very free. You don't have to do this perfectly, you're going to have a couple of yellows at this.

Dr. Emil 42:28
And the key there is if you've identified one and two, what you want and what your boundaries are, clearly, then you need to not back off, if they do get upset, or if the conversation doesn't finish, as it should, like what you've set in one in two exists regardless. And just because someone has taken it the wrong way. It doesn't mean you back off, because these are non negotiables for you.

Itamar Marani 42:53
Yeah, it's like that, that quote by Miyamoto Musashi, you gotta love it. The truth is what it is, you can bend to its power and live a lie. And once you have to find that, like, it pokes you because you know, you're not happy. You're not content, you can't turn a blind, blind eye to it anymore. Yeah, yeah. Any last words about this? USA male?

Dr. Emil 43:14
No, that was that was great. That was useful. That was powerful. And the biggest thing is to start doing it and start doing it with little things. To get those reps in like, ask, you know, asking the person next to you to not smoke. It's a tiny conversation that makes no difference. But you're practicing you're trying these things, and then you'll get better at it quicker.

Itamar Marani 43:34
Cool. I want to leave with a question. The question I would ask the audience, as you guys ask yourself is, where in life? Are you afraid to set a boundary, you know, you need to set. And it could be because you're afraid of the consequences about being told you're being unreasonable. Or being told that this is a part of life, you should just accept it could be a lot of those things. But how much better Could your work and personal life be if you were able to get really clear on what you wanted? And then assert yourself, have your boundaries be respected. Like, if that looks like a very, very nice future, we now have a framework to do it. And as Emile said, it's like, once you nail in one and two, you can turn back from that. So I hope this podcast was helpful. We did this because a lot of people asked about boundaries and about having tough conversations. I feel like this is probably a subject we're going to touch on again. Because this is such a common thing. It's such a combination of there's so many people want to talk about. So here's what I've asked audiences Well, if this was something that you want to touch on, if you have questions about this follow ups, please shoot me or a meal, a message, email, whatever it may be, and we'll look into it. And also honestly one of the alumni of the program so this was his biggest thing. They took away how to have conversations. If this is a subject people want to touch upon more, we might bring him in as well so we can give his perspective. Aside from that, guys have The tough conversations first with yourself and then with others. If you don't do that, as a meal set, it is almost impossible to really have a 10 out of 10 life. And this requires truth, honesty and courage. To move into that,

Dr. Emil 45:18
let's leave it at that. Thanks a lot guys. Enjoy the show you guys

Itamar Marani 45:20
We will see you on the next episode.