How Israeli Hostages Survived Hamas Captivity: Exclusive Interview with Chief Mossad Psychologist Glenn Cohen | Elite Performance Podcast #65

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:06:19
Itamar Marani
So what does it mean to redefine someone's story, and why is that so important to do as fast as possible?

00:00:06:21 - 00:00:22:14
Glenn Cohen
It's all about the narrative, about our story, and about the reality that we meet. It's my story and the story of a victim. Or am I going to call myself a survivor and somebody who not just survives but thrives despite the traumatic events?

00:00:22:14 - 00:00:41:11
Itamar Marani
Glenn Cohen was an Air Force pilot, a mossad officer, a hostage negotiator and a special forces psychologist. He served in the Mossad for over 25 years, retiring as the chief of psychology. It's the equivalent of rank of a colonel during the current Israel-Hamas War. Lancer for over 100 days in reserve duty as the head psychologist of the team that debrief the hostages upon the return.

00:00:41:14 - 00:01:03:10
Glenn Cohen
There's tons of research on, you know, the different aspects of post-traumatic definitions. The fact that they went through something traumatic doesn't make me into a loser or a victim or somebody who's helpless. No. The opposite. I went through it. I survived it. That means I have resilience. That means I can cope. That's a completely different narrative.

00:01:03:12 - 00:01:11:12
Itamar Marani
So what does it mean to redefine someone's story? And why is that so important to do as fast as possible?

00:01:11:13 - 00:01:47:14
Glenn Cohen
Well, it's all about the narrative. The external reality, is not really relevant. What's important is our narrative about our story and about the reality that we meet. And, so when somebody comes out of a traumatic event, which could be, you know, let's say in battle or hostages, you know, being in a life threatening situation. Or it could be somebody in business who has, you lose, a deal or an athlete who loses a game.

00:01:47:16 - 00:02:06:13
Glenn Cohen
You know, that's, that that's the event. And then the question is, what's your what's your story? How do you you know, what's your narrative? How do you explain that? And what lights do depict that. Like does it mean that, I'm a loser? And then as a result of that, you know, I'm going to go around with this image and, feelings and their behavior.

00:02:06:15 - 00:02:28:05
Glenn Cohen
Or am I a winner like Michael Jordan says? Because every single time I, I lost or I missed a shot, that's, you know, because of that, I'm going to succeed. Same thing. Somebody who comes out of captivity. Or somebody who goes through a traumatic event. Am I going to be am I am is my story thing the story of a victim?

00:02:28:07 - 00:02:58:21
Glenn Cohen
Or am I going to call myself, survivor and somebody who not just survives but thrives despite that traumatic event? So it's all it's all in our in our not all, but I would say 80% in our, in our mind and the story we tell ourselves. And if we believe in this story, which is a positive story, which not that the what happened was good, but that this traumatic event is something I believe I can grow from.

00:02:58:23 - 00:03:22:15
Glenn Cohen
And, the fact that I went through something traumatic doesn't make me into a loser or a victim or somebody who has, you know. No. Was somebody who who's helpless. But no, the opposite. I went through it. I survived it. I that means I have resilience. That means I, I can cope. That's a completely different narrative than somebody.

00:03:22:15 - 00:03:36:02
Glenn Cohen
And I see across the board, whether it's, people, you know, who come out of, combat or hostages or also people in business, it's the same idea.

00:03:36:04 - 00:03:52:08
Itamar Marani
How often are people not willing or they struggle to take on that identity of a survivor, of someone who's done the right things and if it is a common thing, how do you help people get out of it and transition to a better kind of mindset around this?

00:03:52:10 - 00:04:15:04
Glenn Cohen
Well, that really depends on your personality. And there are people who you know it all. They grew up and they have everyone was has a story and a narrative about about ourselves. And and some people will have, a positive story. Some people have a negative and, you know, and it's, it's it's all based on. It starts where we grew up.

00:04:15:04 - 00:04:43:03
Glenn Cohen
And, and so some people go through life feeling that, you know, that's it. I'm, I'm a loser. I'm worthless. And parents have a big, impact on that. All all one needs is all a child needs is one adult who believes in him. Not necessarily the parent. If the parent doesn't believe in them, then that could be a teacher or a mentor or whatever.

00:04:43:05 - 00:05:08:19
Glenn Cohen
But those of us who who've who come early with a, you know, a positive, approach, they're they're going to end up going further. And you have people who, have this negative, take on themselves and, and they if someone like that comes to me to, to work, it's a lot harder. And I'll need to work harder.

00:05:08:19 - 00:05:38:14
Glenn Cohen
And when somebody sits down on my, on the, on the couch or behind me here and, either in a therapy session or in, an executive coaching session, and they're going through a rough battle, said, okay, do you know, this is you know, you're in the midst of this now. It's, it's really bad. It's traumatic. But, believe me, this will you know, it has so much potential for for growth and and there that that's a difference some people will be able to to say, you know what?

00:05:38:18 - 00:06:00:05
Glenn Cohen
I'm maybe maybe you're right. I'm willing to consider that. And some people just they, they, they, they fall in love with their, with their story of, you know, the negative story of being a victim. And, and they'll end up, just, you know, wanting to have that label of somebody who is, you know, has, you know, gone through tough times and is the victim.

00:06:00:05 - 00:06:28:07
Glenn Cohen
And they want people to feel sorry for them. And that's really rough. You know, that's hard. That's hard to work with. And those people will not get as far as somebody else who's willing to say, okay, I went through that. But, you know, I'm, I'm gonna I mean, lift myself up from it and I'm not going to fall in love with I see time and time again with also with, people in me, who come out of the military and they're, and they're injured either physically and or mentally.

00:06:28:09 - 00:06:49:02
Glenn Cohen
Some people will, you know, ask for recognition and help, which is a good thing, but some people will take that upon themselves as like a label. And it's like their identity. I am a cripple. I am, you know, I'm a handicapped. I'm disabled because of the army. And they, you know, they have the, you know, literally can it and they'll put it on their car and that's me.

00:06:49:02 - 00:07:09:04
Glenn Cohen
And and they want they want people to relate to them that way. And, and, and the other people will say, okay, I have this, certain disability. And because I was injured, you know, but I'm not going to let that define me. Despite that, I'm going to keep on pushing and growing. And that's the difference that, you know, it's a it's a different mindset.

00:07:09:04 - 00:07:14:17
Glenn Cohen
And it's it's a lot easier to work with the with the latter.

00:07:14:18 - 00:07:35:19
Itamar Marani
How much do you think that has to do with whether or not somebody had, let's call it a quote unquote positive self identity of themselves before whatever had happened happen. For example, the kid before the military who was already had the affection of his parents, who already had, let's say, you know, a great partnership with, girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever it may be.

00:07:35:21 - 00:07:55:11
Itamar Marani
And then they went through something while already having the belief that I am worthy of attention, as opposed to somebody who did not have that growing up. And then all of a sudden, like this kind of what they're getting out of calling themselves a cripple or identifying as this or that, it gives them this kind of sense of, attention that they've never had before.

00:07:55:13 - 00:08:01:22
Itamar Marani
And that's why they grasp onto it. Is that a big part to do with that is just some people are just wired like that and some people are not.

00:08:02:00 - 00:08:39:09
Glenn Cohen
Well, at the end of the day, 90 plus percent of the issues that people are dealing with, it's all about self-esteem and self-worth. And that's what it boils down to. We all need and crave, a sense of, self-worth, which is fed by, affection, attention. Admiration, that we get externally and, and so it could be that somebody who is used to getting so much attention, and he's a golden boy.

00:08:39:09 - 00:08:59:03
Glenn Cohen
And then all of a sudden it gets in the military and and, you know, failure for the first time that that could be, overwhelming. And, and that's, and that's the real test because, sometimes it's it's actually, you know, we say, you know, what doesn't, you know, what doesn't kill you fortifies you.

00:08:59:03 - 00:09:19:22
Glenn Cohen
And so sometimes it's actually, there's a big advantage to go through to have a child. And it's a bit tough, you know, that will that you will be tested and that you won't always be, you know, not to have a cushy childhood because, you know, some people like that, if they meet for the first time of failure, it's, can be crushing.

00:09:19:22 - 00:09:23:09
Glenn Cohen
Much harder to overcome.

00:09:23:11 - 00:09:45:06
Itamar Marani
So I want to kind of bring this back a little bit, to the hostages. When you're dealing with someone who's gone through something as extreme as that and how can you help these people? Like, this is literally your job, your team. This what you guys do is a part of it. Tell them kind of reconcile and reintegrate.

00:09:45:07 - 00:09:56:22
Itamar Marani
And is there a point where there's a conversation of, hey, you've been through this stuff. It's horrible. And at the same time, we need to move forward with your life. Or how does that work?

00:09:57:00 - 00:10:40:04
Glenn Cohen
Yeah. Well, yeah, that's that's really, one of the big challenges, too. On the one hand, to really, acknowledge, that they, you know, that it's hell and they were in hell. And, but at the same time, to stress that you went to hell and came back to tell the tale, you survived that. And the fact that you are here, the fact that you that you came to this moment where, you know, I would meet them there, you know, the as they arrived, at the hospital, coming in with a helicopter and to speak with them, you know, a couple of hours after they've arrived and to say, yeah, well, that was tough,

00:10:40:04 - 00:11:06:20
Glenn Cohen
but. Well, look at you. You survived it. You're standing or even just lying down. And if you're in a bed but you're here breathing and the fact that you survived, we need to stress what that means about you and your coping abilities and your resilience. And that's something that, it's. You need to find the the the the fine balance between those two because you don't, you know, and it depends on the other person.

00:11:06:20 - 00:11:23:20
Glenn Cohen
Some people, like I said before, will want to be more of a victim and say, oh, how terrible it was. And some people will try to brush it off. But so it's really important to, to pace and lead and to meet the person where they're at, not to make any shortcuts and not to, tell them too quickly.

00:11:23:20 - 00:11:41:07
Glenn Cohen
Oh, you're such a hero. You have to acknowledge, see, you know, see where they're at. You have to be like this, really with them. Not not to for ahead of them face and leave to feel where they're at. And if they're, you know, talking about, oh how terrible it was. And so yeah, it was terrible. It is terrible.

00:11:41:09 - 00:12:04:17
Glenn Cohen
And not to push too quickly, but to keep that in your, in your arsenal and be ready to, when they're ready to hear it to, to give them that extra, push and, encouragement and say, wow, you know, it's amazing. And, and if you survive that and you cope with that, that. Well, what does that mean about you, then of course, you can cope with the with the rest of life.

00:12:04:17 - 00:12:31:07
Glenn Cohen
And it's, you know, the, the support network that, that you have now, if it's, the whole, you know, the, the staff, professionals, mental health, and family and friends, you know, together, you will definitely be able to get through this. So it's really important to have like, a sort of like, you know, a, a a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:12:31:09 - 00:13:01:02
Glenn Cohen
And to have, you know, sort of like, you put in effect to, to also suggest that, yes, we we know you will be able to get through this because for them, it's, you know, they they may find it hard to believe. And you have to remind them, suggest suggested believing in yourself and a little bit, a little bit also believe that and up that together with, you know, going through all the, you know, the post-traumatic effects of going through something like that.

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:08:00
Glenn Cohen
So it's really a it's a delicate balance and a bit of a bit of a dance between those two.

00:13:08:02 - 00:13:22:08
Itamar Marani
To summarize kind of what you said, is that a bit of a dance as far as when you said, acknowledge that it's hell. So basically the dancers, to make them feel understood, not that somebody is not trying to listen to them, hear them, and then also to help them imprint that identity of like, oh, but it was hell.

00:13:22:08 - 00:13:36:01
Itamar Marani
But look at you. Look at you here. Now look at you surviving this look, you doing this. So what does this mean about the kind of person you are? It probably means something positive. And it's kind of a back and forth dance between the two, making them feel heard. And then like, telling them what they need to hear in order to move forward.

00:13:36:01 - 00:13:38:01
Itamar Marani
Basically.

00:13:38:03 - 00:13:41:14
Glenn Cohen
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good summary.

00:13:41:16 - 00:14:10:10
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So question around that is so you talked about some of the people they want to hold on a little bit more to the, the identity of I just went through this and what this means. And some people naturally just want to move past. Do you think there's also a benefit for to those people who want to move past it too fast, perhaps to actually digest what happened or is that not the time now, or what are your perspectives on that?

00:14:10:12 - 00:14:44:14
Glenn Cohen
You know, it really depends. On on the situation in general. Consider as a rule of thumb, it's important to, to process, and that's move on too quickly. But there's no, hard and fast rule as far as when that time is, because there are some people who, they, they need they need time and they need to feel it's part of their self-efficacy and their belief in themselves that they that they can move on.

00:14:44:16 - 00:15:14:05
Glenn Cohen
They need to literally move on. And, and they and they, you know, they, they need to be, let's say, doing as opposed to being, for example, now, we're still in the midst of this, you know, terrible hostage, ordeal. The 250, 117 have come back, alive, 30 something have, been, brought back as, as bodies, and there's still a hundred there.

00:15:14:07 - 00:15:55:17
Glenn Cohen
And so the ones who came out, they are mostly busy, with doing, the doing is to try to bring back the remaining 100 because they feel terrible. And just like everyone in Israel, we all feel like it's our brothers and sisters who were there in captivity. And, but they especially, are surviving from the sense of, survivor guilt that the fact that they, they came out and, and they literally, feel like they were torn from their, their friends or, family members who are, who were left behind.

00:15:55:17 - 00:16:17:14
Glenn Cohen
And so for them, it's not the time to to to process and feel, you know, what they're feeling. It's for them. They need to do and to take care of, as much as possible others and to to do whatever they can to bring the other ones back. You know, then that's what's going to come down. And when the time comes, they'll be able to deal with themselves.

00:16:17:14 - 00:16:50:13
Glenn Cohen
So, a lot of the hostages do came back or not. In they're not in therapy at the moment because they're, they're, they're, they're just they feel like they don't, you know, have the, the headspace for it. So that so that's okay. That's what they need to do. But I would say that, you know, if somebody just moves on and doesn't process whatsoever and, you know, let's say for me, I, I lost my father when I was six years old and, I just moved on, and I, put on the service, the, on the ice, man, I don't need anybody.

00:16:50:13 - 00:17:07:00
Glenn Cohen
I'll never be vulnerable. And, only in my late 20s, 30s that I allow myself to, to really process it. And so that was, you know, that was a bit late. You know, it would have been better if I, if I would have processed that, earlier.

00:17:07:01 - 00:17:26:12
Itamar Marani
When you said bit better. Because this was a very interesting part for me when we talked about this back in the day, is why is it so important to redefine that, like as fast as possible? Crazy the moment after the traumatic event immediately have that kind of intervention in some way. What are the ripple effects? They're saying this is why it's so important.

00:17:26:13 - 00:18:07:14
Glenn Cohen
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's tons of research on, you know, the different aspects of, you know, post traumatic, definitions. You know, there are there are different, labels of, you know, there's post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, is is given as a diagnosis only after, at least one month after the traumatic events up until one month. It's not considered a disorder because it's just a it's a whatever symptoms somebody is, is exhibiting, they're considered a normal, reaction to an abnormal, event.

00:18:07:16 - 00:18:39:00
Glenn Cohen
And so that's why in that first month, period, if you can already, talk about it and process it, there's, it raises the chances that it will develop into, a full blown disorder. Because actually, just like getting it out of your system, literally and figuratively. It has, it leaves less sediment and, and therefore it's this a there's a better chance of, you know, your prognosis is actually better.

00:18:39:00 - 00:19:03:01
Glenn Cohen
And people who just leave it inside and they, they can't it's sort of also like a like, like an animal in the, you know, in Savannah who's, under attack by a lion. You have the gazelle who has a fight or flight freeze. Reaction when the, the flight and when they, they, they run and when they, when they manage to, to flee from the, from the predator.

00:19:03:03 - 00:19:24:14
Glenn Cohen
You'll see them lie down and they actually, they they shake their entire body shakes and they discharge they, they, they let it out of their system that that traumatic, experience, it's really important to, to discharge it also in physical ways. And, you know, a lot of people who go, you know, they'll go go for a good run or a good workout, beat up some punching bag or whatever.

00:19:24:19 - 00:19:37:09
Glenn Cohen
It's good to, to get it out of your system, you know, physically, but also by talking about it and emotionally to, to discharge it so it doesn't stay stuck in the system. That's why the sooner the sooner the better.

00:19:37:11 - 00:19:56:13
Itamar Marani
So to kind of recap, a bunch of the stuff you're saying is that in order to help somebody move the first, it's crucial to try to do it as fast as possible from the traumatic event, because that's when they really get to define the narrative of what happened and who they are. As. And that's also going to help them decide how they're going to see themselves moving forward.

00:19:56:15 - 00:20:14:06
Itamar Marani
And in order to do that, first thing is acknowledging what they've been through. So they actually think, okay, this person understands me. I'm not just saying I'm going to get some kind of, recognition, perhaps for what I've been through. And once they're on board with that, you move on to the next step. Is what you're saying. Like, yes, you were in hell.

00:20:14:07 - 00:20:35:06
Itamar Marani
Absolutely. But you also came back and you survived. And wow, look at you. And what does this mean about you? And the next step, which is kind of what I'm assuming just from hearing what you're saying, is to actually almost figure out a plan of action, of how can you prove to yourself that you're indeed this kind of person, what are your next steps to be in the doing?

00:20:35:06 - 00:20:52:19
Itamar Marani
Like you said, for some of the hostages? Okay, I'm going to be a part of this whole movement to try to release more of the hostages and help support that as much as I can. But I wanted to ask, is that something that you actually think is a good idea? Obviously, there's, a different pace for every person, but to actually provide.

00:20:52:23 - 00:21:05:11
Itamar Marani
Okay, let's figure out what are the next tangible steps during this place. So how can we what are the next things you can do to keep showing yourself that you are this kind of person that's surviving this doing and so on, and thrive?

00:21:05:13 - 00:21:46:10
Glenn Cohen
Yeah, I think it's, so much of it is about, you know, being able to have, the ability to look back and say, oh, you know what? I succeeded, and every time you succeed, you know, to put that in your on your list of, of successes and then each time you encounter adversity, you, you look back and say, hey, I, I've done either this or something similar or some kind of, you know, I've dealt with some type of adversity and, doesn't necessarily have to be the exact same thing, but, you know, the same thing of doing just like doing, endurance events.

00:21:46:12 - 00:22:10:18
Glenn Cohen
You know, I do ultramarathons or Ironman competitions, and it's not about the, you know, doing, whatever it is, the 180 calories by bike and 42km running and 3.8km swimming, that that's not okay. That's that's nice, but it's symbolic. It's like, wow. You know, because the first time I heard about an Ironman length, I was like, no way in the world, you know, this is impossible for me.

00:22:10:18 - 00:22:26:06
Glenn Cohen
It's only for Superman. And but, you know, when I managed to a little by little, the first time you do something and you succeed and say, wow, I can do this. And if I can do this, if I can do this thing that I thought that was impossible for me, then wow. What does that mean about other things in life?

00:22:26:08 - 00:22:45:02
Glenn Cohen
And therefore, you know, the idea is for us to realize that we're all capable of much more than we imagine, but we just we limit ourselves. And so it's like every time I have a I succeed in something that I, that I doubted myself. It's symbolic for other things. And I need to look back and say, okay, well, I did that.

00:22:45:02 - 00:23:03:16
Glenn Cohen
I doubted myself, but here I succeeded. So that means I can I can step up to the next, challenge. And so each time you got to, you know, and the idea is not to, not to set too high a bar, you know, and that's why, you know, I talk about, you know, moving out of your, your comfort zone, you know, but not too far out.

00:23:03:18 - 00:23:30:02
Glenn Cohen
That's to the panic zone, but to, you know, push out a little bit, a little. So it becomes the learning zone. And each time you said another goal, another goal and you, that's a little bit tougher. Increase, you know, by whatever, 5%, 10% to the difficulty level. And you say, well, if you're succeeding in this and again, again, and then you look back and say, wow, I'm capable of so much more than I thought.

00:23:30:04 - 00:23:46:13
Itamar Marani
This is a bit of a segue, but do you think that's why it's so important for people to celebrate their wins more often in business and and so on, because it, it kind of cements that self-belief like, oh, I did this thing and I celebrated it and it makes me remember that actually accomplish this thing completely.

00:23:46:13 - 00:24:19:14
Glenn Cohen
It's all about, self-efficacy and, you know, feeling that I am capable and, you know, life in general, we we create this, this illusion of control. You know, at the end of the day, none of us are really in control of our lives. And I'm saying that just because of the extreme situation, if I contrast it to you know, not our day to day lives, but the hostages, who they are literally in the, you know, worst possible situation as far as, you know, having no control.

00:24:19:16 - 00:24:46:19
Glenn Cohen
But even there in captivity where you have the least control and apparently, you know, it seems as if you can't win. But we, you know, we teach our, our soldiers when they go through P.O.W. training, you know, to have these small wins. And we literally use that, that terminology and, and you find the way even in that situation where you have no control, you can you can't have these small wins.

00:24:46:19 - 00:25:12:18
Glenn Cohen
And that's also what the, what the hostages did, there. And I've got plenty of examples of that. And it's the same thing. And also in life, even though, you know, okay, we're not literally in captivity, but but each one of us, everybody out there, we're all captive to to a certain degree, we're we're we're in a, you know, we, we're captive in our in our limiting beliefs, the way we perceive ourselves.

00:25:12:18 - 00:25:48:00
Glenn Cohen
And, we may feel that we're not, you know, we're not good enough and that, we don't have enough wind. So it's really, really important, to, to focus on our success, even though it's, it's sort of paradoxical to people, like, you know, me and you who who go through, you know, we're used to, like, an elite training programs and, special ops and the Air Force where, you know, the, the, the debriefing and every, you know, every single mistake you make, you learn from it.

00:25:48:02 - 00:25:49:21
Glenn Cohen
And you emphasize focus.

00:25:49:23 - 00:25:51:22
Itamar Marani
It's the main emphasis, like I said.

00:25:52:00 - 00:26:17:20
Glenn Cohen
Yeah, but that's something that we need to be really careful about and not just to focus on our mistakes and how we learn from them. That's of course, super important to debrief everything we did and learn from our mistakes. But not less important is to emphasize our wins, our successes, and to learn from them, to celebrate them. And, it's it's not less important, even more important.

00:26:17:20 - 00:26:49:02
Glenn Cohen
And especially for if we're if we have people working under us. Because even if, let's say, a guy like you, you know, you try you, you know, you're one of the toughest guys I know. And you don't mind, you know, you can go all day, not, not celebrating your wins, and you'll be okay about that. And, but, you know, but people, you know, you're, you know, you're working with or work, for you, they're not as tough as, as you and, and guys out there are CEOs who, you know, they say, hey, bring it on.

00:26:49:02 - 00:27:13:21
Glenn Cohen
No problem. Let us see. I don't want to waste time, you know, talking about my my successes. You know, let's learn from from our failures. No, no, it's a mistake. We gotta emphasize, wins. And remember, we can always, always find something positive, even if things are really going, you know, so. Or and things are bad and, rough times, whatever they are.

00:27:13:21 - 00:27:48:14
Glenn Cohen
And again, if I refer to the hostages, you know, worst possible time, it's darkest, situation. But even there, you can find these small wins and, a small array of light in that darkness and then pull from that small ray of light little by little. Now it's the, it's the holiday season, Hanukkah and, and Christmas and, it's all about, it's all about light and, you know, if it's, it's dark, there's always somewhere where you can find a small ray of light, and you gotta focus on that until it becomes bigger and bigger.

00:27:48:16 - 00:27:54:14
Glenn Cohen
And, and that's the way to to to move on.

00:27:54:16 - 00:28:12:12
Itamar Marani
I want to ask you about if you could share an example, if you're allowed to do that of any of the small victories, you've actually seen some of the hostages, be able to kind of just make up for themselves or how are they able to cope with it? Keep that hope. Because and I'll say why? It's kind of when I hear you speak.

00:28:12:12 - 00:28:33:18
Itamar Marani
And a lot of the things we talk about, the debriefing and all that, my thoughts are not that the debriefs are super important for your knowledge base and the celebrating the winds are crucial for your spirit, and if you don't maintain your spirit, then whatever knowledge or capability you have, they won't matter. But at a certain point, you're still a human being and it'll feel not fun, not enjoyable, and you'll want to quit.

00:28:33:20 - 00:28:49:23
Itamar Marani
Yeah, and the maintain meanings of the spirits to those wins. I'm very curious about how some of the hostages were able to do that, and especially because a lot of them are civilians. They're not they haven't gone through P.O.W. training. So if they were able to kind of figure that out by themselves or.

00:28:50:01 - 00:29:26:07
Glenn Cohen
Yeah, well, that's really one of the most amazing things. And that's one of my, after this whole experience of, you know, debriefing 117 hostages, so far and God willing, the ones that are remaining, one of the most amazing insights is that, we really are so much more capable than we imagine, even in that situation of captivity, these civilians, these things that we teach, top commandos and P.O.W. training.

00:29:26:07 - 00:29:53:07
Glenn Cohen
And so these civilians, the the things I'll give a few examples. It could be, it could be it could be an eight year old woman. It could be a 14 year old boy. If we take away small wins, he can give the example of, you know, when you're in captivity, you don't have orientation, and and your job is to you don't have control.

00:29:53:07 - 00:30:22:06
Glenn Cohen
So your job is to try to maintain control. One of the ways to maintain and control is the orientation of their, to keep track of time. And so that's an example of many, many hostages managed to find ingenious ways to keep track of time. One, you know, 14 year old kid was given three dates every day, and he would eat the dates and put the pits aside and three pits every day, and he would keep track of that.

00:30:22:06 - 00:30:45:23
Glenn Cohen
And then he knew how many days went by. According to to the pits. Another lady, had a, you know, she was in her 60s and she had a small little stool, made from bamboo. And she scratched every day. Another scratch on this, stool. And after, like ten, 20, 30, 40 or 50 days, she she knew exactly how many scratches were there, and so much so she knew.

00:30:46:04 - 00:31:12:20
Glenn Cohen
But the her her captors came up to her and said, we need how many days we hear her. And she knew better than them. Well, how many days have gone by which is which is incredible. When, when, when you when you think about it. There are other, other examples of having, small, small wins where, this is something we teach our, command.

00:31:12:20 - 00:31:30:00
Glenn Cohen
And it's also to, you know, when you're in, a situation of, you know, you're being interrogated by somebody, you, you, you look at the interrogator and you try, you say to yourself, you don't say to him. He said, oh, you know what you're like. Make fun of the interrogator to yourself. You feel like you're getting that this.

00:31:30:00 - 00:32:00:14
Glenn Cohen
Oh, this guy's ugly. This guy. You know, you say all these things, these negative things about him to to yourself, and you feel like, okay, I'm getting the better of him. I'm a beat. I'm beating him. It's like a it's a silly little thing, to say, but but it's a technique that that helps people in captivity and, and literally, I heard from, from, hostages who came back even like some, some children who, found the way to, to beat their captors by, like, making fun of them again.

00:32:00:14 - 00:32:22:03
Glenn Cohen
Not to their face, but but, they had, like, these names for them. They they called. They call them different names. One, one teenage kid had, the, a pushup contest with, with his captor, and he actually beat him. And so, you know, little things like that, that just go such a long way.

00:32:22:05 - 00:32:47:18
Itamar Marani
So it's kind of reflect back. What you're saying is that also, you said this at the beginning, that a lot of it is just 80% things. That is our perspective on a lot of this stuff. And using this to these kind of cases is really, really extreme examples. It's saying even in this situation, they were able to, in a way, change their sensation of control or power.

00:32:47:19 - 00:32:55:22
Itamar Marani
They had the dynamics of their life. And through that that instilled a lot of hope. Is is that correct?

00:32:56:00 - 00:33:17:23
Glenn Cohen
Yes. And, once you feel like you're because once once you give up and then you and you say, that's it, I'm helpless, that's it. It's game over from there to like, you know, dying, you know, of of heartbreak and, paralysis. It's it's not a long way to go, especially when you're dealing with malnutrition and, you know, hygienic, conditions that are difficult.

00:33:17:23 - 00:33:45:22
Glenn Cohen
But if you have that spirit of failure, I can do this. I, I, I believe that I will get through this. And the belief has to be based on something. And so either you can base it on some external, belief in some external cause that, okay, I believe in, let's say the country, the military that or God, you know, God will will save me or the, you know, the, the governments that will will release me, the military release me.

00:33:45:22 - 00:34:07:02
Glenn Cohen
That that that helps. But it's also not less important is a sense of self-efficacy and belief in oneself. And, the fact that, okay, I can do this, I can get through this here look. And I just proved myself here because look what I just did. I managed to maintain, control in a seemingly, you know, helpless, situation.

00:34:07:04 - 00:34:32:04
Glenn Cohen
And then that means, well, I can do this. There was one eight year old, lady who, as she got on, as she was being kidnaped, she was on a motorcycle being, taking them across the fields to Gaza, eight years old. And she said to self, okay, I've got a mission now. I've got to remember everything I can in order to come back afterwards and tell everything that I remember, and I can do this.

00:34:32:06 - 00:34:56:08
Glenn Cohen
I've been through a lot in my life, and I've got a mission and I can do this. Imagine her sense of her belief in herself that she could do this. And so that was all about her. And she came out and and she remembered so much and she she told us. And that was an incredible example of how the belief is not just about, you know, external, you know, something greater than myself, but also belief in myself.

00:34:56:08 - 00:35:20:14
Glenn Cohen
You got to have that. You know, in general, I talk about, you know, resilience. It's it's three circles of belief in the inner circle of belief in myself. Second circle is my surroundings, which could be, you know, my, my family, friends, teammates. And the third one is something greater than myself. And the more circles of belief that you that you have, the more resilience you're going to have.

00:35:20:16 - 00:35:53:22
Itamar Marani
Would it be accurate to say that the kind of recap that summarize what you're saying here is that these are really powerful tools to keep the human spirit going? One, having a sense of belief, both external or internal, but then also having in some way a sense of control or of power that you get through these kind of beliefs that if I have this mission or if I do this thing, then it will mean this about me and therefore the situation isn't as bleak and we can kind of almost give ourselves, a delusion of what's going on.

00:35:53:22 - 00:35:55:19
Itamar Marani
But that serves us really well.

00:35:55:21 - 00:36:37:21
Glenn Cohen
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's definitely it's all about creating this. And it goes back to your first question about the, you know, our story and, you know, the external reality, like I said, is really less relevant than our perception of the reality and our story. And, and the more we can create this, this, this bubble, and, you know, especially in such adverse conditions like captivity and everything I'm talking about here, about captivity, it's, you know, anybody who's who's hearing this has to realize it's completely relevant to our lives, you know, but not that, you know, God forbid any one of you will be in captivity.

00:36:37:21 - 00:37:08:08
Glenn Cohen
But but captivity is the most extreme situation of, you know, of, like the worst situation you could be in. And, and everything that helps us cope. There are things that we can apply in our lives and, and any adverse, conditions. And so, we always need to, to create this sense of, you know, of the way we perceive reality, but we have to be very it's very tricky because, you know, you don't want to disconnect, you know, in real life, like in business or whatever.

00:37:08:10 - 00:37:41:15
Glenn Cohen
You don't want to disconnect from reality when you're in captivity. It actually sometimes because it's so extreme, it actually helps to disconnect. And that is something we actually teach sometimes. You know, in P.O.W. training, we help people. You know, if you're being, let's say, if you're being beaten, you find a way to like, you know, just to just, coast, you know, off somewhere, in your imagination and imagine yourself in some, you know, some hammock in, beach in Thailand, and you and you disconnect from the, you know, from the terrible situation you're in at the moment.

00:37:41:17 - 00:38:04:20
Glenn Cohen
And that's actually another tool, that, you know, people will use in your imagination to, to disconnect. And, but it depends on how bad the situation is. So, you know, it's it's good to use your imagination even in, you know, if you're living a normal life and in the business world, if things are going so well, imagine, you know, success.

00:38:04:20 - 00:38:34:15
Glenn Cohen
Imagine at the end of the year, you know, having the, the Christmas party or whatever, and everyone's celebrating that, the big success that we had, even though right now things are bad, that that helps. And, it's really important to use that, imagination and belief to create that, that, that, that reality, you know, it's more like a virtual reality and, but it's got to be somehow, you know, connect based on a true story.

00:38:34:17 - 00:39:04:07
Glenn Cohen
And I can give you even more, you know, examples of how people managed to just maintain control and convince themselves that they are in control, even just like in an interpersonal way. In, in captivity, they managed to to influence and have an impact on their on their captors. And this is something that we that we teach, you know, in P.O.W. training, I call captivity an extremely stressful interpersonal situation.

00:39:04:09 - 00:39:30:15
Glenn Cohen
And that's something that it's it's hard for a lot of people to wrap their minds around, especially, you know, with this situation with, with the families, in order for barrack behavior and, what we saw in the sense of October and, and, as a terrorist organization and the way they, the way they act, it's hard to to describe them as human beings, the way they, you know, the way they've been behaving.

00:39:30:15 - 00:39:49:18
Glenn Cohen
But when you're in captivity, it's a, it's a realized that there was a person there, from the point of view, that it's a human being that you can actually influence and have an impact on. Once you realize that, that gives you a big advantage, even in captivity. I mean, in general in life, everything in life is it's all interpersonal.

00:39:49:18 - 00:40:17:07
Glenn Cohen
And, you know, people who don't realize that they, you know, they're they're not going to get as far, but, but it's all about, you know, influencing somebody else. But and even in this worst case scenario of captivity, so much of it is about interpersonal. And the people who realized that and, and took advantage of that and have the emotional intelligence to be able to to influence their, their captors and convince them to do things.

00:40:17:11 - 00:40:35:18
Glenn Cohen
For example, put the gun down. You're scaring the children, and they convince the captor to put the gun down. Or somebody else said, you know, I've got a a cardiac, condition. Let me get some exercise. And and the captor agreed and let them walk, down the tunnel, like six, 700 yards and then it up, and then they see somebody behind bars.

00:40:35:18 - 00:40:58:13
Glenn Cohen
Oh, there's, two guys, two other hostages behind bars, and she goes back and convinces the captors to to allow them to, to not to release them, but to have them rejoin them and to take them out of that situation behind the bars, because she had the guts, to and the emotional intelligence to to realize that she has the ability to have an impact and influence.

00:40:58:13 - 00:41:25:04
Glenn Cohen
And that also gives bolsters her sense of control. And so every time you experience another, you know, it's also in the category small wins, but within the specific category of like interpersonal, area. So that just makes it, you know, easier to, to, to cope in this incredibly, you know, the situation. It's it's beyond words. It's, it's hard to describe what's going through.

00:41:25:04 - 00:41:35:06
Glenn Cohen
It's terribly traumatic and it is hell. But even within that hell, there are these small ways to to have these small and.

00:41:35:08 - 00:42:18:18
Itamar Marani
So a question around that, specifically around having the small wins and building hope, something we actually talked about, back in the day when we were working together, is that you kept telling me you told me about the stock. Stockdale paradox, that people can actually die of a broken heart. And I'd be curious, first off, if you could just tell listeners what that actually is and, how does that relate as far as, on one hand, wanting to make sure that somebody does have hope and on the other hand, making sure that that hope doesn't crush them, so to speak, when it doesn't get met or when something bad happens or when there's another twist.

00:42:18:20 - 00:42:40:19
Glenn Cohen
Yeah. Well, stock there's paradox is something really important for everybody to know in life. You know, whether you're just, the person, you know, without any responsibility or especially if you're a leader. James Stockdale was the it was a Navy pilot, and, he was down in Vietnam, and he was the highest ranking officer. In captivity in Vietnam.

00:42:40:19 - 00:43:03:13
Glenn Cohen
And he survived eight years in captivity in Vietnam. Imagine what that means. And when he was asked who survived and who didn't, he said that those who didn't survive were the ones who were too optimistic, which is really fascinating because, you know, we would think, you know, you optimist, is most important. It has a belief I'm going to be released, I'm going to be released.

00:43:03:15 - 00:43:24:20
Glenn Cohen
But what he said was the ones who were so optimistic and too optimistic and said, we're definitely going to get released by, you know, by Christmas time, Christmas came and went and they didn't get released and they died heartbroken, literally. And the same exact thing actually happened in the Holocaust. Victor Frankl describes that in his book Man Search for meaning.

00:43:24:22 - 00:43:51:09
Glenn Cohen
The same exact thing happened. There are people who who put all their eggs in that basket of their belief and hope that they'll be released, Christmas. And it didn't happen. They literally died heartbroken. So the same thing here happened. And so so the bottom line of what he said is his paradox is that what he said we need to do is, on the one hand, you have to look the reality, you know, in the eye and say, okay, you know, Houston, we have a problem and not be too optimistic about the situation.

00:43:51:10 - 00:44:12:23
Glenn Cohen
Say, oh, everything's fine. Everything will be fine. Now we have a serious problem here. You got to look the reality in the eye and say we're you know, we've got a serious problem here, but at the same time, this is the paradox. To maintain this belief that we will prevail despite this difficult time. Whatever we're going through, I believe we will prevail somehow.

00:44:13:01 - 00:44:25:22
Glenn Cohen
Some someday, somehow, even if I don't know exactly when or how, I still have this belief together with the sense of like, this is really that. And that's the paradox that we all need to reveal to the.

00:44:26:00 - 00:44:49:17
Itamar Marani
Whole question for you about this is in your perspective on this from all your experience is the mastery about having that belief, but not having an attachment as to when and how exactly is that the real kicker? I remember they used to do this, for example, in the military, when they'd want to get you to quit, they just be like, oh, you need to climb this one more help, and then you'd give it your all and they make, oh, there's actually two more hills off to this.

00:44:49:19 - 00:45:11:12
Itamar Marani
Yeah. And that belief of like when it's going to be over was the thing that was crushing. It wasn't the two more hills. And I was wondering about this. I was thinking about this before the interview. If if that's the big thing, it's about in some way trying to maintain hope but not having that attached as to when exactly it will happen, because that could be when the letdown is.

00:45:11:14 - 00:45:46:13
Glenn Cohen
What I would say. It's not necessarily only that the when the when time is an important factor, but it's it's much broader than that. It's about maintaining hope no matter what. Even though even though you are now in the lowest spot or feeling like you're, you know, things are so bad that you just you have this inner belief that I will prevail and it doesn't really matter when or how, but like I have this inner belief that I will, I will succeed.

00:45:46:15 - 00:46:09:00
Glenn Cohen
And that's, that's really the the essence of it. And, and it's, it's it's all about, believing, you know, that, you know, when you go to bed at night and wake up in the morning, have this inner sense of like, oh, I am the type of person who, you know, I'm, I'm a winner. I'm going to succeed.

00:46:09:02 - 00:46:44:00
Glenn Cohen
Even though, you know, I'm, you know, things are not and I'm not succeeding. Now, I firmly I will never give up that hope and I will, I will succeed. And, and that's that's the essence, of course. You know, timing. As you know, it's important because that is one of the things when one of the things that helps people most is that when they're going through a rough time to say that to themselves and convincing themselves, this too shall pass, and to to to know and to believe that this is temporary.

00:46:44:01 - 00:47:16:18
Glenn Cohen
Because if it's not temporary, if it won't pass, then I might as well just commit suicide right now, because this is it. You know, I'm stuck in this forever, in this agony of whatever it is. You know, if somebody is in a really, you know, in a rut, depressed or of course, you know, the in captivity, if I, if I'm going to, if I'm not going to get out of captivity, well, what's the point of living but to have that belief that this too shall pass, this difficulty is temporary, that is really an important thing to to keep in mind.

00:47:16:20 - 00:47:34:12
Glenn Cohen
And so I'll just fortify also like, you know, with examples from the, the hostages, what they did, how they calibrated their sense of belief as far as the time, a lot of them, when they went in initially, they said, you know, oh, you know, within a couple of days we're going to be released. And then when they said that, then I think they said, okay, you know what?

00:47:34:14 - 00:47:50:04
Glenn Cohen
Someone said, you know, it's more like, you know, a couple of months. And then and some of them actually got out after a couple months, but there was somebody else, a kid, a teenage boy who said, what do I know about captivity? Who is in captivity from Israel? Who do I know? Gilad Shalit was the guy who was in captivity.

00:47:50:06 - 00:48:12:10
Glenn Cohen
How long was Gilad Shalit a soldier in captivity? For five years. So he said, okay, I'm in for five years. That was his mindset one day earlier. That's a bonus. So he went, was that mindset feeling okay? I'm in for for for five years. And that's how he calibrated, you know his his belief. And you know not to be too optimistic which is amazing.

00:48:12:10 - 00:48:30:12
Glenn Cohen
This is a, you know a kid. And so it just means we all have the ability to adopt that mindset. I think that's really, really important for all of us to have that mindset, sort of like, you know, hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst. And also as a leader, like if things are bad and they're going through a rough time not to say, oh, everything's fine.

00:48:30:13 - 00:48:39:08
Glenn Cohen
Everything will be fine. I'll tell the company, tell your workers, tell everybody, tell the family. Yeah, this is a rough time, but we're going to get through it.

00:48:39:10 - 00:49:04:07
Itamar Marani
No question about that. Well, you just said it was interesting that. Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. When I hear you really sounds like almost more so believe in yourself and prepare for the worst. Is that kind of a more accurate spin on that saying? Because a lot of what I'm hearing from you is it's not, I can make it until or if this happens or under these conditions is that I can make it regardless.

00:49:04:09 - 00:49:36:08
Glenn Cohen
Yeah. What I would say, yeah. It's not just myself again. Harness all three circles of belief. Because, you know, there's the old, saying, if you want to go fast, run alone. But if you want to go far, go, go together. And, and so I used to be a loner myself, and it was all, you know, just, it was hard for me to, to work with others and trust others.

00:49:36:10 - 00:49:59:08
Glenn Cohen
But now I realize if you want to go furthest, the furthest distance and furthest in life and succeed more. So you gotta have all three circles believe in yourself, your surroundings, your your teammates, your your friends, your family, and to work together with them and, have belief in something greater than yourself. You know, it's not enough just to to want to make money.

00:49:59:10 - 00:50:19:18
Glenn Cohen
You have to have a belief in something greater than yourself or greater cause to do good in the world or whatever, to have an impact. That will together with believe in yourself and other people that will, help people, get furthest and, you know, be prepared, you know, for have contingency plans and be prepared for worst case scenarios.

00:50:19:18 - 00:50:26:04
Glenn Cohen
But it's about not just, belief in yourself. It's really important to those other two circles of belief.

00:50:26:06 - 00:51:04:13
Itamar Marani
Yeah. Okay. I want to say a way to something a little bit different. This is obviously a very, very sensitive topic. And there's a lot of paradoxes here. There's there's different fronts. They get affected by the same thing. So to speak. And this something we talked a little about briefly, but I want to ask you, how do you balance trying to actually cry out to the world, especially in your position about how horrible it is, everything going on with Hamas, the hostages, October 7th, while at the same time trying to maintain the spirits of the families of the hostages and making sure they don't see themselves, especially the ones that have already been

00:51:04:13 - 00:51:11:05
Itamar Marani
released as victims. How do you manage that duality?

00:51:11:07 - 00:51:48:18
Glenn Cohen
Yeah, it's really one of the things I struggle with most. And, it's really, it's really challenging because, especially now we're in the midst of it and we still have 100 hostages there, which is just unfathomable. And, the the world has to realize that this, this cannot continue. And, and there has to be, pressure applied and, on the Hamas, to release the, the hostages that are there, they're not just Israeli citizens.

00:51:48:18 - 00:52:18:10
Glenn Cohen
They're also, American citizens and, other foreign nationals and, and they're going they're going through hell. They're being abused physically, emotionally, sexually, tortured. And, it's just, it's it's it's unfathomable. And, unacceptable is, is is the understatement of the year. And so that has to be clearly cried out to the world.

00:52:18:10 - 00:52:45:15
Glenn Cohen
And that message as to this to be broadcasted and people have to realize how how terrible it is there and it is terrible in itself. At the same time, though, we have to maintain this belief and we have an agenda of, of our, national and personal resilience and part of our resilience, like we said before, is, is this this belief that they can, and will survive this.

00:52:45:17 - 00:53:09:05
Glenn Cohen
So that's really that's really, the crux of it at the same time to say, okay, this is how to go through hell. But to believe that they have the ability to, to cope, it doesn't mean that, you know, they they should stay another day. They have to be brought back today. But if they're still there and every day that they are there, we have to maintain this belief.

00:53:09:05 - 00:53:52:07
Glenn Cohen
And I and I meet also a lot of hostages, families and, every, every family, has to have the, clear belief that my loved one who was there in captivity, I truly believe, despite everything, that, that there's no other option he or she is going to be brought back, is going to be, recovered, and he will survive this and and to and to send that energy and that belief and then and also for the for because some of the hostages actually hear it or see it because sometimes they are exposed to, to media and they'll hear either on the radio or, or maybe even on TV, they'll, they'll hear people

00:53:52:07 - 00:54:17:09
Glenn Cohen
in Israel speaking at the demonstration and, and the vibe that we have to, to send to them is that we believe in you and your ability to to cope and, it's very, very, very tricky, to have that duality. But that's the we gotta, that's, it's got to be that, you know, it's sort of like a, one, two punch, on the one hand to tell the world how terrible it is.

00:54:17:11 - 00:54:51:13
Glenn Cohen
But at the same time believe and I and I and I say this based on 117 stories that I've heard of, of people went to hell and came back and they had these incredible ways of coping and, even those they came back, you know, after two months, eight months, ten months. So every day that goes by, it's gets, more difficult and, they're, they're shape, physically and mentally is getting worse and worse.

00:54:51:15 - 00:55:01:21
Glenn Cohen
But we are, capable and, and, we have this, this inherent resilience. And then we got to believe that.

00:55:01:23 - 00:55:36:14
Itamar Marani
I want to talk about something a bit different now, this is, I think so when October 7th happened, you immediately jumped into action. You were called in by your reserve unit, and you jumped into the into the mission, so to speak. And from the sideline, what's been very much something that I've admired about just seeing you and noticing how you've gone about this past year and a half almost now, is how you've managed yourself through it all.

00:55:36:16 - 00:56:03:05
Itamar Marani
And when this happened, a lot of people, myself included, like I felt very lost. For example, when we spoke about this last time we met in person. I don't think I told you this, but the, the concept, for example, you shared with me about how you also work with, the elite units and how you talked about how the guys that weren't in action in October, like the guys that are not in reserve duty, feel guilty about not being in reserve duty.

00:56:03:05 - 00:56:34:18
Itamar Marani
The guys that are in reserve duty feel guilty about not being in active duty. October 7th, the guys that were on October 7th feel guilty about not being in as many altercations. The guys that were in a lot of altercations feel guilty about not getting shot. And there's kind of this endless chain of everybody feeling guilty and for whatever reason, for me at least, it helped me a little bit, make sense of it, of why I was feeling so bad and just kind of noticing that no matter what I did, probably unless I got shot in the chest, I would still feel guilty about it.

00:56:34:20 - 00:57:12:01
Itamar Marani
And for whatever reason, that principle created a lot of relief in me. It still obviously feels bad, but it was something that logically, I can kind of hang on to. And for you. I've seen you do many things that I think I perhaps wouldn't have had, the maturity to do, whether it's during that adventure you did in Iceland or I remember the post you wrote about, like the power cry, things that you took care of yourself in ways that from the outside, make entire they make complete sense.

00:57:12:03 - 00:57:38:01
Itamar Marani
But most people rarely give themselves permission to do. And because they don't do that, they ended up spiraling downward as far as their performance and their ability to actually help like that. Guilt doesn't help them, and it actually puts them in a state where they can't help others. And I would just love to hear your perspective and how you went about thinking about this and managing yourself and and putting yourself in a position to be able to continuously perform and help.

00:57:38:03 - 00:58:11:14
Glenn Cohen
Yeah, yeah. Well, one of the things I, I suggest to everybody to adopt, these days is what I call an ultra marathoners, mindset. As an ultra marathoner, I can say that, the ultra marathon is anything beyond, you know, 42km. People run ultramarathons. They have three golden rules. One is drink before you thirsty, eat before you're hungry, and rest before you're tired.

00:58:11:16 - 00:58:34:21
Glenn Cohen
Those are the golden rules of an ultra marathoner, because he knows that he's in it for the long run. And when you have that mentality, you think differently. And I think in a lot of ways, definitely people here in Israel and, anybody who's connected to the situation after the, you know, the 7th October in the war we're still going through, we're all still in an ultra marathon.

00:58:34:21 - 00:59:04:16
Glenn Cohen
But I think also a lot of people out there in the world after Covid and the reality out there, we're all and, you know, in a bit of an ultra marathon. And we have to think that way, as a long distance runner. And when you when you realize that, then it gives you the legitimacy to take care of yourself preemptively, just like when you're flying in the airplane and there's the oxygen drops, you know who is supposed to put the mask on first, and then the instinct is to put it on on the kids.

00:59:04:16 - 00:59:29:20
Glenn Cohen
But no, the instructions are to put it on yourself first. Even though it's counter-intuitive. But that's the mentality that we have to have. We have to think about taking care of ourselves so that we can take care of others long run. And so that's, that that's the mentality and that, you know, so it's it's all about the balance that we find.

00:59:29:20 - 00:59:51:15
Glenn Cohen
And so, you know, the balance between helping others and being altruistic and taking care of ourselves. And it always helps, you know, those of us who are very, very values driven and we always want to be giving and taking care of others. So we have to realize, okay, I'm doing this. It's not for myself. I'm taking care of myself in order to take care of other people.

00:59:51:15 - 01:00:21:21
Glenn Cohen
And then that takes away a lot of the guilt. So that's one one aspect of it. Another, another aspect is a balance between being, you know, mission oriented and being, you know, emotional. Connected in that. And I talk with, and, you know, when I talk about elite, performance, I talk about the LTTE, the, the, the elite, code in my mind is the, the last e is execution.

01:00:21:21 - 01:00:41:16
Glenn Cohen
And that's what the what we're here for. And we want to execute everybody in there, you know, if it's business or business execution, if it's, here in the war, you want to execute, but the way to execute has to go via the first E, which is the emotions and the emotional world. And then that's what we call the e factor.

01:00:41:18 - 01:01:02:08
Glenn Cohen
And I suggest everybody finds that balance to have that factor and to realize that you can't just be in, you know, in doing mode all the time in execution mode, you gotta find the way to also be connected emotionally and find a way. And so for me, I was, you know, I was called up and I had a really important mission, and I was dealing with, you know, the hostages.

01:01:02:08 - 01:01:18:10
Glenn Cohen
And so most of the time I had to be very, you know, missionary. There wasn't much room for my emotions because I was so focused. And it was such a, a lot of people were talking like, I got, you know, they're there just to hear the word hostage. People would get the the heebie jeebies and would have really a panic attack.

01:01:18:10 - 01:01:33:08
Glenn Cohen
Just imagining, you know, a hostage that's in, you know, and that's a mentioned actually to, to meet the hostage was returned like for them it was like overwhelming. But for me, you know, I just felt like, okay, you know, this is a, this is a mission that needs to be done. It's it's it's a it's a super important one.

01:01:33:10 - 01:02:04:17
Glenn Cohen
And it's not, I can't get emotionally involved. I have to be, of course, empathetic and and sensitive. But I had to find a way to put my emotions, to the side. Just like when a pilot, you know, flying a mission, you know, as a search and rescue helicopter pilot and, you know, you go in under fire and to to rescue, wounded people and, you just you just put it aside and, and and the helicopter was full of, people in bad shape.

01:02:04:18 - 01:02:22:13
Glenn Cohen
You just, you know, you don't think about just do the mission and, and and afterwards you afterwards, you think, oh, well. And that was scary. But same thing here. I would find the way while I was doing the mission just to be focused. But every once in a while it's important. And this is an important tip for, for people to realize.

01:02:22:15 - 01:02:49:11
Glenn Cohen
Also, as far as not to wait too long, every once in a while to to tap in. So like a pressure cooker to allow yourself to have this like a sort of like a vent to, to let off some, some steam, eventually, like, has a seal under the gasket. So to let off some steam emotionally and, and I found myself every once in a while, I'd have a, I would call it a power crisis.

01:02:49:11 - 01:03:06:18
Glenn Cohen
Like, there's a power, a power nap. That's, a few minutes, but it goes a long way. I would, every once in a while, I just find myself just. Well, the little weird bursting out and tears and it. And I'd allow that, like, I wouldn't be. I wouldn't be freaked out by that. I let myself cry. Just get it out.

01:03:06:18 - 01:03:25:15
Glenn Cohen
So, like the same discharge that I talked about, you know, before to let it out of the system and it would go a long way and, you know, so I definitely recommend, you know, for people to doesn't have to be, bursting out in tears, but at least to let yourself, you know, choke up or whatever, let the emotions come up every once in a while.

01:03:25:17 - 01:03:30:12
Glenn Cohen
It's really important. And another thing I did, actually, was that you have to push sound boundaries.

01:03:30:12 - 01:03:52:13
Itamar Marani
Sorry, Glen, can I just add one thing here for sure? What? So what do you think is really interesting that a lot of time the perception is that letting out an emotion is a weakness and you can just manage it, so to speak, and just hold it in. And you're saying here something very different. You're saying that this is actually the thing that will give you more strength to keep enduring, especially if it's a long distance thing?

01:03:52:16 - 01:04:11:04
Itamar Marani
Yes. If it's if it's a mission, that's a three hour mission. That's one thing. If it's a year long ongoing project like what you're involved in, it's it's not a sign of weakness. It's actually the opposite. It's a tool to keep keep helping you go and keep staying strong. Is that accurate?

01:04:11:06 - 01:04:41:03
Glenn Cohen
It's accurate. And, it it takes about half a year for people to, to really, be able to internalize, believe that and, and to buy into it and, and then, of course, it's important to say here and for people to at least hear the words and if it's a to enter into the, into the mindset, and and it takes a lot of work for me.

01:04:41:03 - 01:05:04:18
Glenn Cohen
I mean, that's, you know, in my mind, really one of the most important keys to, to becoming, you know, like a little like a superhero and, superpower to to realize that, you know, I call it the the paradox of weakness or the Brené Brown has, a, a Ted talk. She calls that the, the power of vulnerability.

01:05:04:20 - 01:05:29:22
Glenn Cohen
Once somebody, you know, like you or me or guys out there and in the business world or, you know, high achievers, once you realize that the paradox that being in touch with your vulnerability and actually showing vulnerability is actually a strength and not a weakness. Once you realize that, then boom, you're on the way to discovering a superpower.

01:05:30:00 - 01:05:52:08
Glenn Cohen
And, it's really that's that's the thing. And it's, but it takes a lot of work because, like, I'm already at a stage. I'm, I'm 60 years old. I'm, I'm already, I've got enough, you know, mileage and success behind me to to be able to, you know, to show, weakness and vulnerability.

01:05:52:08 - 01:06:21:16
Glenn Cohen
And I suggest to, to to people out there as soon as possible, to, to get, you know, friendly with your, with your weaknesses and with your vulnerability, be able to share it, be able to show it. And that is a strength of true strength, of weakness and to be emotional, you know, when, and I'll look it up on stage also I, you know, when I talk about, you know, the hostages, sometimes I find myself, choking up, up on stage in front of 600 people.

01:06:21:16 - 01:06:42:01
Glenn Cohen
And and not only is it not a weakness, people, you know, they just feel like, oh, wow. You know, it just it makes me more human. And it connects them. And they, so it just it has all the advantages, and they're no real disadvantages. Disadvantages are in your mind because you think, oh, they're going to think I'm a a movie or I'm a pussy or, you know, that's, that's in your mind.

01:06:42:03 - 01:07:11:17
Glenn Cohen
If you feel comfortable and confident about yourself, then you can show that, vulnerability. And it's just a sign of sign of strength. Well, there's another thing, if you ask. Like how I conducted myself. And what helped me is one thing. Another thing that helped me, not just, you know, putting the oxygen mask on myself and taking care of myself and crying once in a while, going out in nature, but also, I call it the, the feather technique.

01:07:11:19 - 01:07:40:16
Glenn Cohen
And, and I just happened to have really I didn't prepare this, but I have a feather here to to demonstrate, because what I did was at a certain stage where I felt I had so much, stress and so much weight on my shoulders. So the role I had was, you know, there's a lot of responsibility. Plus, you know, it's taken care of, you know, literally hundreds of, soldiers and other people who needed, resilience were it was a lot of my shoulders.

01:07:40:18 - 01:07:58:01
Glenn Cohen
And at a certain stage I thought, okay, this is already going to be too much, I would say. I said to my, it's my family. It's my wife and kids. I said, they said, if anybody dares to put, as much as a feather on my shoulder, then that weight that's just going to be too much.

01:07:58:03 - 01:08:17:02
Glenn Cohen
And, and so then that became like, like our code. And it was if anybody like, if my daughter would say, oh, you know, dad, can you help me with the, the car insurance? I say, feather, feather. It's that everybody realized, like, if I were raised like the, the feather, that means, lay off, back off.

01:08:17:04 - 01:08:45:00
Glenn Cohen
Giving my space. And, I need, I need to take care of myself. And so that's, that's another, thing that I suggest that people, not to be shy and to say, you know, that's it. Enough. Not just to actively help yourself and oxygen mask and to rest and to drink and to eat, you know, before you're tired, thirsty and whatever, but also to show other people and to put down barriers and say, no, enough stuff.

01:08:45:02 - 01:08:45:20
Glenn Cohen
That's really important.

01:08:45:20 - 01:09:09:05
Itamar Marani
Also, I'll say this the biggest, the most interesting thing I've heard from this and what you just said right now is the two words that are connected guilt and intimacy, that guilt and legitimacy. Yeah, that it's legitimate. And it's been very piercing because I think a lot of the reason, after October 7th, I saw this, I experienced it myself.

01:09:09:05 - 01:09:43:23
Itamar Marani
And I also saw it much, much more in others as well. They would go on this emotional downward spiral. I just didn't know what to do with themselves. And because of that, they just kept going and going, going, just burning themselves out and just starting to do to take unhelpful actions, let's call it that. And what was going on with a lot of that in my sense, what I sense is that they didn't feel it was legitimate for them to take care of themselves, because there was no actual reason why there was no concrete mission behind it.

01:09:44:00 - 01:10:05:08
Itamar Marani
However, like having just even if you don't have a specific mission of I'm going to do this, like what you did, but just having that kind of understanding this is going to be an ultramarathon is going to be a long situation, and therefore it's not legitimate. It's required that I preemptively take care of myself, that legitimacy of like saying, okay, this is going to be a thing that need to be for a long way.

01:10:05:08 - 01:10:11:11
Itamar Marani
I need to be prepared for it. I can see how that can combat the guilt of just like I should be doing more, even if I don't know what to do with myself.

01:10:11:16 - 01:10:37:18
Glenn Cohen
Yeah, well, yeah, for sure. I think the guilt a lot of us, you know, also high achievers have, guilt. You know, if if I'm not always, you know, working hard for to achieve more and, you know, self-improvement and, you know, just, push harder and harder. It could be if I'm not doing a workout or if I'm that, you know, doing some, business, meeting or whatever.

01:10:37:19 - 01:10:57:06
Glenn Cohen
A lot of us have that guilt and, I think the the game changer, and we've, you know, we've talked about this a lot, is to realize that, when you take care, taking care of yourself, that's also a mission for, you know, just, and even if taken care of, doesn't mean that just not doing anything.

01:10:57:08 - 01:11:22:07
Glenn Cohen
Just, like, relaxing and not not going and doing the workout, that's also taking care of yourself. And, and that's also, a type of, of mission. And so whatever you do, even if it's not doing anything that's also doing something and then like you paradoxically, somehow you like you, you, you, you flip it around and, and then that leads you to feel okay every breathing moment.

01:11:22:12 - 01:11:44:21
Glenn Cohen
And I think that's something that, you know, I talk about like the sense of like just being able to go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning and feel okay about yourself, even if you're not doing something, you know, that's, that's clearly, advancing, you know, some, some goal. Just hanging out and relaxing is also serving that, that purpose.

01:11:44:21 - 01:12:07:18
Glenn Cohen
And that's really important to to realize that because so much of so many of us, you know, high achievers are really, guilt ridden. And it just it eats away at our, at our, energies. And, and they're, they're a reserve and it's just, it's a pity because the being in the being mode is also the it helps the doing.

01:12:07:20 - 01:12:25:02
Itamar Marani
And so I want to say I appreciate you sharing that. And I wanted to bring that up because I know a lot of entrepreneurs, they feel so stressed about their business and they say I have people's livelihood, my employees and my hands. So I can't rest. I can't give myself permission. It's something for me to take a day off, whatever it may be.

01:12:25:04 - 01:12:52:23
Itamar Marani
And I appreciate you sharing your example because you literally deal with people's lives, not just a livelihood. It's a much deeper thing. And I don't think many entrepreneurs if and you could say that their job is actually more stressful than yours and what you've done this past year, and I really appreciate it. Like, again, from afar, being able to see kind of your example through this and learning from it and honestly trying to be trying to be more like that.

01:12:53:01 - 01:13:26:22
Glenn Cohen
Yeah. Like maybe like you want to hear the example of Iceland. What I actually did this, because that I think is a really, a good example of, of not just of how to be a high achiever, but also how to, adapt, according to the circumstances and, and to take care of yourself despite everything that's going on around, because I plan for my 60th birthday just this past year to to do a 600 kilometer crossing of Iceland from coast to coast by bike and run it.

01:13:27:00 - 01:13:47:16
Glenn Cohen
And this is like I planned that way before the 7th of October. And this is like going to be an amazing, thing. But then the war came and I completely put it aside. And, when I was dealing just with the hostages and soldiers and, and resilience were, but when it came closer to the day, I said, you know what, I feel this is really important.

01:13:47:16 - 01:14:08:08
Glenn Cohen
I think I need this, and not only do I need this, but I feel like this is an important message that I want to convey. And I decided to go ahead with, with this Iceland crossing in August when, at that time, the flights were there were no most international flights were canceled. But, you know, we're we're literally under attack.

01:14:08:08 - 01:14:29:13
Glenn Cohen
The Iranians were about to to send a barrage of missiles like the whole country was, you know, locked down. And, my, my son was in a combat position and hostages, you know, the deal was, was brewing and there was so many reasons why not to go to Iceland. You know, plus, my wife didn't really want me to go, and so there were so many things lined up.

01:14:29:13 - 01:14:47:05
Glenn Cohen
But I said, you know what? I am going to do this almost, you know, no matter what or that it wasn't no matter what it was, against all odds, I'm going to, and also the whole a lot of Iceland was about proving to myself that at the age of 60, I can do 600km and feel like, okay, I'm, you know, I can do this.

01:14:47:05 - 01:15:09:00
Glenn Cohen
And for that is symbolic for other things, but also to actually go. And my flight was canceled and I noticed that, I found some other rerouting, like three different flights with my bike, box, you know, every time loading it on the, different plane. Just the fact that I managed to leave the country and get to Iceland, that itself was an incredible, accomplishment, you know?

01:15:09:00 - 01:15:26:23
Glenn Cohen
Well, the the Iranian missiles were, like, on the way to us and then to actually cross Iceland 600km and eight days and every single day and and the the weather and the, you know, 60 mile an hour winds and then the freezing cold and the really, you know, really against us to actually do that under those circumstances and all this.

01:15:26:23 - 01:15:50:01
Glenn Cohen
Well, everybody back home is like underwater, you know, a war. I said, no, I need to do this for myself. This is a project. And I'm also going to show everyone and be an example to walk the talk, to say, okay, this is an ultramarathon mentality, not just to actually do the ultra marathon, but this event is me taking care of myself and resting.

01:15:50:03 - 01:16:10:09
Glenn Cohen
Despite everything that's going on around us in the country. And so that was that was the point. And, so everyone, you know, you don't have to do 600,000 Iceland. But the point is the, you know, I suggest everybody takes some time off, look out for yourselves. Because it does serve the greater cause for.

01:16:10:11 - 01:16:22:20
Itamar Marani
To wrap this up, Glenn, are there any, any stories or any lessons from this past year that you want to share that you think will be useful to our audience?

01:16:22:22 - 01:16:50:19
Glenn Cohen
Well, really, the the bottom line is, see it again and again that we are all capable of much more than we imagine and take that as a given and then realize that we we, we underestimate ourselves. And and we're only achieving about 10% of our potential. And I see this over and over and over and over again.

01:16:50:19 - 01:17:24:01
Glenn Cohen
And also with 117 hostages, it just fortifies that position. And so that should be the main takeaway. You know, the fact that these hostages managed to do things that we teach are tough commandos, and P.O.W. training. And these are just normal, regular civilians managed to pull this out of their, you know, their their their toolkit that, who to believe that they have this, it just means we all have this internal, inherent resilience and ability to cope and to accomplish so much more than we imagined.

01:17:24:01 - 01:17:39:01
Glenn Cohen
We just limit ourselves. So start limiting ourselves, believe in ourselves, push forward little by little out of our comfort zone, step by step. We'll all be able to do so much more and live the lives that we we should be living.

01:17:39:03 - 01:18:00:09
Itamar Marani
Very well, said Glenn. I want to say a big thank you for coming on, and, I greatly appreciate you having you as a mentor, as a friend. Someone I learn a lot from, and I thank, thank you for coming on the pod for the first time. How can people find you? They want to learn more if they want to connect with you or any of the projects that you're working with?

01:18:00:11 - 01:18:16:00
Glenn Cohen
Yeah. I'd love to be in touch. You can contact me by my website. Glenn cohen.com. It's, Glenn with two ends and hyphen. Cohen.com. I'll be happy to be in touch with anybody.

01:18:16:01 - 01:18:23:06
Itamar Marani
So we'll put that in the show notes below. Guys, you can find those links. Glenn, thank you again for coming on. Appreciate it.

01:18:23:08 - 01:18:26:23
Glenn Cohen
Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure. You're you're the star.