Overcoming The Fear of Growth and Graduating from Marketer to CEO W/ Jason Barnard | Elite Performance Podcast #58

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:18
Jason Barnard
I signed at least $150,000 in deals that I wouldn't have signed without the training. And by the end of the year, I would expect to be at something like 300,000 or $400,000.

00:00:09:22 - 00:00:12:17
Itamar Marani
What would have happened for what ended differently now?

00:00:12:19 - 00:00:14:17
Jason Barnard
Number one is.

00:00:14:19 - 00:00:28:18
Itamar Marani
Today I am joined by Jason. Jason is the founder and CEO of Kalicube which is of digital marketing more specifically and how to manage and control your personal brand online to become the reference thought leader in your history and to be present everywhere your audience looks when they're.

00:00:28:20 - 00:00:50:05
Jason Barnard
Putting the emotion to one side has created the calm because it's the emotion that creates the excitement, the worry. As soon as I've taken the emotion and put it to one side, just the calm is projected. People can feel it and it changes how I manage people, how I manage myself, how I relate to people and how I'm selling.

00:00:50:07 - 00:00:52:17
Itamar Marani
Welcome. Just coming up.

00:00:52:19 - 00:00:58:05
Jason Barnard
It's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I can share my story.

00:00:58:06 - 00:01:05:22
Itamar Marani
So with that said, can we start off by that, like basically, what's the before? What's the after since we've been doing the coaching?

00:01:06:00 - 00:01:28:18
Jason Barnard
Well, I started to transition to being a real CEO less than a year ago, in fact, because I had to go to hospital and I had to lead my team to manage the shop, as it were. And that was a scary experience and made me realize to what extent a my team are brilliant and B, how uncomfortable it was for me.

00:01:28:19 - 00:01:48:00
Jason Barnard
So I went through multiple iterations of training. I started review after seven or eight months and now we're well, 11 weeks later, almost three months later, three months later, huge transformation in terms of my mindset and how I approach everything to do with my company.

00:01:48:02 - 00:01:54:20
Itamar Marani
It's great a tangible results that this wouldn't have happened before I had done this work for.

00:01:54:22 - 00:02:15:15
Jason Barnard
Well, specific monetary results is I signed at least $150,000 in deals that I wouldn't have signed without the training. Potentially. Now I hope we're going to sign another 50,000 in the next few weeks and by the end of the year, I would expect to be at something like 300,000 or $400,000.

00:02:15:17 - 00:02:30:22
Itamar Marani
That's great. All right. So first off, congrats on that. That's great. So what do you when you say I wouldn't have been able to do this after coaching you, what specifically is that? What what's the difference there? What would have happened before? What can you do differently now?

00:02:31:00 - 00:02:53:07
Jason Barnard
Um, well, I think one of the things is not getting over excited about everything. That's always been my tendency. A bit childish to get overexcited, get over enthusiasm, stick. I think the word is and learning to stay calm has changed both my way of presenting our services to people and the way I manage my team and the way my team actually move forward.

00:02:53:09 - 00:03:15:12
Jason Barnard
Much more confidence. So from a sales perspective, it's all to do with my attitude to the prospects that we're talking to from a team perspective. The companies moving forwards without me having to get involved in the day to day, which means I've got a lot more time to think about the company and also think about how I'm selling and how I'm presenting everything.

00:03:15:14 - 00:03:35:06
Itamar Marani
Great. So let's get into kind of the nitty gritty of it. What do you think has is there was there anything specific like I have my perspective from the coaching, but from your angle that allow you to have more of this call so that basically if someone else is listening to this or like, oh, that's something that I suppose get over excited about it, don't deliver.

00:03:35:06 - 00:03:40:16
Itamar Marani
Well, whatever it may be, a manager. Oh, that's actually when we did this it allowed me to be more common, gave me that.

00:03:40:17 - 00:03:59:05
Jason Barnard
Number one is I remained calm and clear when I'm explaining things to potential clients, and that makes all the difference in the world. I don't get overexcited like I used to. I don't explain the details. I don't explain explain the how to. I explain what they're going to get out of it. And the other big difference is, in fact, it's not the coaching that did it.

00:03:59:05 - 00:04:20:18
Jason Barnard
It's the fact that I paid for your coaching that did it is that you said to me when I said, I feel uncomfortable paying this money. You said, but do you think it's the right decision? And I said, Yes, I think it's the right decision. And you said, that's all that matters. If you think it's the right decision, even if you're uncomfortable, you're on the right track.

00:04:20:20 - 00:04:39:17
Jason Barnard
And then I immediately saw once I had started signing a deal within four weeks that I don't think I would have signed otherwise. It made me see it as an investment. So now I present our services. The colleague Cube Services, as an investment, and that makes all the difference in the world.

00:04:39:19 - 00:05:01:20
Itamar Marani
Okay, so there's two components here. One, you were more calm, which obviously, you know, radiates during the sales call. This is a calm, confident individual. And two, basically seeing the example that, okay, you were in the driver's seat, so to speak, you bought something, you felt uncomfortable, but you knew it was the right thing to do. Okay. If I'm doing this, other people probably do this as well.

00:05:01:22 - 00:05:03:03
Itamar Marani
Is that accurate?

00:05:03:05 - 00:05:25:18
Jason Barnard
Yeah. And it made me truly believe when I say to people working with Kelly cubits an investment that will bring back multifold what you invest. It didn't. I didn't really believe that before. Now I truly believe it. I know it to be true. And I can see it for our clients that it's bringing back multifold rewards much in the way that the training with you, the payment on it to you.

00:05:25:20 - 00:05:32:02
Jason Barnard
The investment I made in Itamar has brought back Multi-Fold rewards for me.

00:05:32:04 - 00:05:41:12
Itamar Marani
So I want to ask about that. What what made that shift in you having that confidence that it is worth it, so to speak, to give them that return?

00:05:41:14 - 00:05:52:18
Jason Barnard
It was as simple as paying money that I felt uncomfortable with, and it turned out to be very quickly simply an investment that returned its value multifold. It really is that simple.

00:05:52:20 - 00:06:11:07
Itamar Marani
Okay. So first of all, it's very interesting. The first, though, for that, let's pick. So that's part of part two. Such part one. He said also that you were a lot more calm. So what do you think was causing you previously to not have that sense of calm?

00:06:11:09 - 00:06:31:06
Jason Barnard
I think a lot of internal struggles, a lot of overwork, a lot of excessive responsibility. And I think part of the calmness is being told that I need to be calmer and that if I'm calm, everyone around me will be calm, which works is true. And the other is I can be more calm because I've got less daily responsibilities.

00:06:31:06 - 00:06:43:20
Jason Barnard
And I think that's the key as well. I've delegated much better, which means that other people are looking after the day to day stuff and it frees up my mind to think and not worry.

00:06:43:22 - 00:07:02:22
Itamar Marani
Great. So let's dive into that, because when we started working together, that big kind of rallying cry, the big project was graduated from worker to CEO. Yep. And you're saying that was the big thing when you made that kind of jump from just being a marketer? I was a comércio pro into a CEO. Then you also let go of a lot of things.

00:07:03:00 - 00:07:09:13
Itamar Marani
But I remember that was the big thing about I'm not allowed to jump in and do certain things. We got all these rules. Is that what you're referring to?

00:07:09:15 - 00:07:32:06
Jason Barnard
Yeah, from CEO to CEO is what I've been through and it's been delightful. I think it comes down to truly trusting the people who work for me and not system actually thinking that I've got a better idea or that I can do it better or that I need to get involved. And one of the things is the weekly meetings and the structure of the weekly meetings.

00:07:32:08 - 00:08:02:04
Jason Barnard
I get feedback from them every week about what they did well, what they didn't do so well, what the company has achieved, what the company didn't get great value out of. And I found that that helps the people on the team feel more positive about themselves. Whilst remaining self-critical. And the people who don't feel in that form before the meeting are the ones who come into the meeting generally feeling pretty low and unmotivated.

00:08:02:06 - 00:08:16:00
Jason Barnard
So surprisingly saying I didn't do this very well this week, but I did this very well. This week helps to motivate people and give people a clarity and an A and a positive take on what's going on in the company.

00:08:16:02 - 00:08:23:19
Itamar Marani
Okay, So to clarify for the audience, in the past, you didn't have this very structured one on one format, is that correct?

00:08:23:21 - 00:08:28:00
Jason Barnard
Yeah, I didn't. I had only just started doing it.

00:08:28:01 - 00:08:43:00
Itamar Marani
Okay. And that was what do you think? Gave it both empowered the staff, so to speak, because they understood their role. But also it gave you peace of mind because you always knew what was going on, but in a very organized way. It was just like, I always have to think about this. I always have this follow up and so on.

00:08:43:02 - 00:08:44:01
Itamar Marani
Is that accurate?

00:08:44:03 - 00:09:07:01
Jason Barnard
Yeah, that's accurate. Metzinger suggested that I have weekly meetings with my leadership team. I then started working with you and you confirmed it. You both gave me slightly different structures of mix them together and come up with something that works for me, my team and the the idea as well of saying to people, Here's a problem. What's your solution going to be?

00:09:07:01 - 00:09:26:07
Jason Barnard
Come back to me. Next week has been very powerful. Another very powerful thing is timelines, is that I never asked anybody for a timeline. I saw it happen When it happens and it's all wonderful and delightful, which was very, very hands off to the point which I think I was scared to ask the timelines. And now I systematically ask for timelines.

00:09:26:07 - 00:09:48:12
Jason Barnard
We don't always hit them, but at least we know where we're going and how long it's likely to take. The other thing you suggested, which was really helpful, was ending a meeting with something good and something bad about working with the other person. And that went on for the first four weeks. And after four weeks, generally speaking, we'd run out of things to say either positive or negative.

00:09:48:12 - 00:10:22:23
Jason Barnard
We don't through the negative stuff. We got that out on the table. Nobody was offended. Nobody took it badly. The good stuff came out, same kind of kind of thing. And what was interesting is everybody on the team pointed out exactly the same thing to me about what's difficult working with me. And they all agreed. And there's one bad thing about me, and it's sending emails with new instructions and new ideas on a daily basis that interrupts the timeline we've agreed all makes them freak out or makes them switch course or gives them work.

00:10:22:23 - 00:10:27:17
Jason Barnard
Over the weekend. And if I stop doing that, everybody's happy.

00:10:27:19 - 00:10:39:08
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So there's a couple of things I wasn't. I mean, this is big stuff. First off, why do you think in the past you were afraid to give timelines?

00:10:39:10 - 00:11:02:15
Jason Barnard
I was I didn't want to put pressure on people. And generally speaking, I work on a it will happen when it happens basis. So if I happen to be enthusiastic about something today, it will happen today. If I'm not enthusiastic, will happen tomorrow or the day after or next week or never. So I kind of have run the company that way, expecting people to work the way I work, and that's a huge mistake.

00:11:02:17 - 00:11:05:21
Jason Barnard
Nobody works the way I work. They all work their own way.

00:11:05:23 - 00:11:33:17
Itamar Marani
Yeah. Okay. So that's one to ask. What would you say basically to somebody? What would you have said to your younger self? You only I would say like nine months ago. Who was kind of like, I know I should probably be doing these meetings. This is how everybody says you're supposed to do it. But they felt some resistance, whether it's to hold people accountable to a certain level because people won't like them if they hold them accountable, they're more likely to like tough.

00:11:33:19 - 00:11:40:11
Itamar Marani
Also, whatever it may be, from being on the other side of that charge. And what would you say to them to speak?

00:11:40:13 - 00:12:04:10
Jason Barnard
Well, there are hundreds of things going on in most people's minds about why you don't do a meeting with people, set timelines, have the difficult conversations. For me, it was taking in not like me, oh, they're going to walk away. And the fact is, if they do walk away, then we shouldn't be in working together anyway. If they don't like me a little bit, or if they like me a little bit less, does it matter?

00:12:04:11 - 00:12:32:19
Jason Barnard
No, it doesn't matter. You know, we're in a professional environment. People liking each other is obviously helpful and lovely, but it isn't necessary. Disliking people is obviously not going to be great for team morale, but that's a different question. The other thing is I expected them to take responsibility for booking the meetings and I had already told everybody, all the leadership team, there are seven people book a meeting with me every week and they did it once.

00:12:32:19 - 00:12:57:17
Jason Barnard
They did it twice. Then they stopped. And a lot of that I learned afterwards was because they were worried and scared about coming and talking to me. And now that I've imposed it and said, every week we're having this half an hour meeting, we're going to go through the good, the bad, the, the, the, the, the, the goals that we've got and the tasks that we know, the responsibilities that you're working on.

00:12:57:19 - 00:13:23:00
Jason Barnard
We don't get overwhelmed each week. It's a shortish meeting. We move forward step by step. Everybody's comforted by the fact that everybody else is aware of what's going on. And the last thing is nothing is actually told me these meetings are not something you can ever not do without an incredibly good reason. So if I'm in America with the times, I'm completely different to the Philippines.

00:13:23:00 - 00:13:42:04
Jason Barnard
I still have to do these meetings. Even if it's 7:00 in the morning, 6:00 in the morning for me. And I think that's really, really important because I actually rearranged a whole day last week to keep the meetings. And if I hadn't done that, it sends out the wrong signal to everybody. If I'm not taking the meeting seriously, nobody will take the meeting seriously.

00:13:42:06 - 00:13:51:06
Jason Barnard
And if I don't take the meeting seriously, then I would assume people will get the feeling that I don't take the leadership team as seriously as I say I do.

00:13:51:08 - 00:14:20:03
Itamar Marani
Yeah. There's something I want to speak to. What you said about when it was kind of more sporadic. People didn't into booking because they were afraid of it, because it was this big thing. I was like, Oh, I have to have a meeting. But once we create this kind of weekly cadence, we're just another thing you have every single week that, you know, the fear lessons is just you get exposed to it so many times, okay, this is just another part of the week and also just it's not me having to give my boss feedback and them having to give me.

00:14:20:03 - 00:14:49:19
Itamar Marani
And when I do it, it's awkward. Oh, this is just something that we do at the end of every single meeting. It doesn't feel like a big deal anymore because it's just normalized part of the behavior. It's something that we do on a weekly basis, and I think that's one of the big tricks about it. A lot of these of conversations that we want to have with employees or the structures, whatever it may be, if we can just normalize it all of a sudden, it's not a big deal because now they like, okay, I'm expecting it and I am expecting that he's going to give me feedback.

00:14:49:19 - 00:15:02:23
Itamar Marani
I'm going to give him feedback. It's not like, Oh, wow, how is that going to feel? Are we going to do this or are we not going to do this? Should I walk on eggshells? This is just a normal part of the day to day. Is that what it's felt like in the company? Everyone's like, okay, this is not a big deal.

00:15:03:01 - 00:15:21:09
Jason Barnard
Yeah, the meeting isn't a big deal. It's keeping up with each other. The feedback that we're giving each other has become, as you said, normalized. And in fact, a couple of the team members said to me, I'm so glad we've had this conversation because I was scared of you and I'm not anymore.

00:15:21:11 - 00:15:31:23
Itamar Marani
It's great. Okay, first of all, that's a really big thing is huge. Huge. And it's hard to manage company well. Okay, So actually, I was.

00:15:32:01 - 00:15:52:22
Jason Barnard
Just just to finish that. It also means that I'm thinking of specifically the two people who said that to me is that they now come in with decisions pretty much made and just ask me to confirm that their decision is correct, whereas before they wouldn't even start to make a decision without me and that they're not scared that I might say that's not actually what we need to do, or I might disagree.

00:15:52:22 - 00:16:14:17
Jason Barnard
That doesn't worry them anymore. So having that difficult conversation about the way people work and how I'm more or less comfortable with it is hugely helpful for removing the barrier of boss to employee.

00:16:14:19 - 00:16:36:15
Itamar Marani
And to kind of repeat what I'm hearing to you that it's a big part of where we started. Like you were a lot more calm and that calm and able, you also caused more sales and bigger sales and also lead the team better. Mm hmm. Now, with that, the structure of just always knowing that every week you're going to talk to your leadership team, you're going to understand what's important, where they're at.

00:16:36:15 - 00:16:53:06
Itamar Marani
And there's going to be this very open line of communication. It created this very like it's called like a short term calm in immediate calm, but on top of them, on top of that, because it created this environment where it's easier for them to succeed, it also gave you even more calm because, you know, okay, they're actually going to take care of your stuff.

00:16:53:10 - 00:17:00:19
Itamar Marani
You're going to make things happen. Yeah. Is that accurate? Yeah. This virtuous like snowball effect.

00:17:00:21 - 00:17:29:21
Jason Barnard
It is. And that leads me to another thing is that I've always had a fear that if it becomes too big, it will fail. And the calm attitude I've developed and the leadership team I now have who trust me and I trust them and the open communication has got me to a point where I no longer fear that Kim is going to get big.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:42:17
Jason Barnard
It's going to expand, it's going to grow, because I don't think it will fail. In fact, I know it won't fail because I'm better at my job and everybody else is better at their job. So we can scale and I have no fear.

00:17:42:19 - 00:18:06:14
Itamar Marani
It's great. So there's actually something I wanted to jump on. It's in my notes, but I want to talk about this a little bit more. That. All right. Okay. So now you're in a better place, like you're already you look more confident, like everything is flowing really well. And it's it's very doable to say that. Now. However, there was an initial step.

00:18:06:14 - 00:18:34:20
Itamar Marani
We had to say, okay, like we're really going to go big. And it feels scary when the first time you kind of brushed up against that fear of if I go this too big, it will fail or I'll go bankrupt or whatever it may be. What was that initial? How did you get over that initial feeling like now again, like you're kind of past it, you're confident you got But how did it was your interaction with that first party?

00:18:34:20 - 00:18:40:09
Jason Barnard
It was look, is that I agreed to pay attention.

00:18:40:11 - 00:18:40:14
Itamar Marani
To.

00:18:40:19 - 00:19:03:02
Jason Barnard
The coach me without checking the bank balance. I paid you and realized the bank balance was pretty much empty and we were going to struggle and I was very scared that the whole thing was going to collapse. And then I sat down, had a conversation with Jean Marie, who's the head of admin and finance, and had a very frank discussion with about the finances.

00:19:03:02 - 00:19:20:21
Jason Barnard
And she stepped up to the plate and basically said, I'm looking, I'm looking after this now and seeing somebody that confident that they can handle the finances of the company and they feel so sure that they can do it and they feel that they can talk to me frankly, and I can talk to them frankly about the money.

00:19:20:23 - 00:19:39:22
Jason Barnard
I made a huge difference. So the look is I put myself put my company in danger by working with you. And that actually kicked me into a position where I had to then trust Jean Marie, which has made a huge difference.

00:19:40:00 - 00:20:04:12
Itamar Marani
Can I add something on top of that from my perspective? So, you know, usually when there's success with a couple of different components, I get thrown into it. For me, I think there was you had a previous, let's call it a bit of a failure in business, that scarred unit and a lot of times we we struggle to recognize that what was in the past isn't always going to repeat itself.

00:20:04:12 - 00:20:27:13
Itamar Marani
There's different contexts. It's like the situation is different. And also we're different. I think about saying that a man never crosses the same river twice because the man has changed and so is a river. And from my angle, from our coaching, I saw that that was a big thing that we were able to recognize. I have this fear because the last time that I had something successful, we went really big.

00:20:27:15 - 00:20:41:12
Itamar Marani
There were issues. But contextually this is different situation that I saw relieve a lot of pressure. Was that something that you noticed as well, or was it more so in your end? You just felt like it was having that clarity with Gemma.

00:20:41:14 - 00:21:11:01
Jason Barnard
We know that that is an additional aspect to the failure of the last company. It didn't actually fail. It was just very bad for me and I think that affected me very deeply to be. The company was doing incredibly well, was making a lot of money. We were making huge profits. It was easy, easy, easy. And my business partner turned out to be a very difficult human being and that's just made me nervous about a company.

00:21:11:01 - 00:21:32:00
Jason Barnard
When the team gets big and the money starts rolling in and I've seen or I experienced something negative or really bad experience, and although I'm alone, Katie keeps so that wouldn't happen again. The general idea that when it gets big things go wrong was really ingrained in my brain.

00:21:32:02 - 00:21:49:23
Itamar Marani
And that's what you're saying. That's the big context. If you don't have that person there anymore, partner that can be deceitful or whatever. I'm I think so. I'll put it this way. What I see and the reason I wanted to share this, because I see so many guys keeping their business small because and they say they want to grow.

00:21:50:01 - 00:22:09:09
Itamar Marani
You know, they all say they want to grow, but in reality, there's something they're getting out of keeping their business small, and it's usually some kind of subconscious sense of safety or certainty. These are all I know how to manage it like this or like, Oh, this feels safe right now. I'm afraid that if we go there, it's all going to come under.

00:22:09:11 - 00:22:32:20
Itamar Marani
And a lot of times it's not something they're aware is going on. And for you, I felt like it was You obviously had this drive. When you're doing all the right things, you know, you're one of the conferences you were speaking, you're putting yourself out there. You're doing things that are taught uncomfortable. And there was one little thing there that was kind of like keeping saying to yourself, like a voice in your head that was like, Jason, we shouldn't do this.

00:22:32:21 - 00:22:50:19
Itamar Marani
It was bad last time. But being able to have that kind of external experience, we can recognize and talk to that voice in your head and say, This is not like last time because of X, Y, or Z. For people who are more rational, more logic driven. Let's say that. And a lot of times you can try. Yeah.

00:22:50:21 - 00:23:07:12
Itamar Marani
And for you, like that's why it was so enjoyable and easy to work with you honestly, because once you cognitively recognize that, oh, this is a different situation we got from a subconscious level to a conscious level, We were like, You know what? The car you said at the beginning, this still feels uncomfortable, but it's the right thing.

00:23:07:14 - 00:23:11:16
Itamar Marani
And I know there's not a valid reason to not do it. So let's go.

00:23:11:18 - 00:23:32:22
Jason Barnard
Yeah. So in fact, maybe one of the biggest lessons you gave me was before we even started working together. It feels uncomfortable, but is it the right decision? Yes, do it. But the for me, one of the huge things is identifying emotion, where emotions coming in and what I've now learned to do is identify the emotion, put it on one side.

00:23:33:03 - 00:23:43:05
Jason Barnard
It's still there, it still exists. But I recognize it as emotion, which makes the pragmatic, logical decisions much, much easier to make.

00:23:43:07 - 00:23:47:15
Itamar Marani
So what is your process of that? How do you actually do that?

00:23:47:17 - 00:24:00:16
Jason Barnard
Well, I literally have in my mind a situation and I say this parts emotion. This part is pragmatic. And the emotion part for some reason is now in my right hand. And I literally just put it next to me.

00:24:00:18 - 00:24:21:08
Itamar Marani
And so I want to make sure there's a room for the people who are listening and and are not watching this on YouTube. What Jason did is like physically. He shook his right hand and he physically put it aside. And a big thing we worked on is just basically understanding there's different components of you. There is a more rational, strategic one, and then there's the more emotional.

00:24:21:10 - 00:24:45:13
Itamar Marani
A lot of times most people, they're not even aware that that's a thing. They just think I am one entity. But if I can think of myself, okay, there's that emotional part, and then there's the more rational, calm part of me. I can ask myself, who do I want to listen to? And when facing a certain situation where I can feel certain emotions arising and I can decide to go with who am I going to listen to and who's saying what, and then being able to put that aside.

00:24:45:13 - 00:25:04:15
Itamar Marani
It's a very powerful tool. Like you keep bringing up. I had a lesson the of the points I wanted to bring up in the podcast. This was another one that you brought up as well, but that was for me, see, and I think that's what created the call and that's really where I wanted to come back full circle with this, because when people are emotional, it's very challenging to be calm.

00:25:04:15 - 00:25:15:03
Itamar Marani
But when you have that ability say, I don't have to be controlled by my emotions, it gives room for that calm, rational, logical side of you just come out there. What are your thoughts on that?

00:25:15:05 - 00:25:37:00
Jason Barnard
No, no. As you were saying it, I was thinking exactly the same thing. And I was going to say, oh, we can put this back in at the beginning because by putting the emotion to one side has created the calm, because it's the emotion that creates the excitement, the worry, and people can feel it. And as soon as I've taken the emotion, put it to one side, just the calm is projected.

00:25:37:01 - 00:25:55:06
Jason Barnard
People can feel it and it changes how I manage people, how I manage myself, how I relate to people and how I'm selling and how I relate also to our clients. So it's a huge, huge thing. Simply putting the emotion to one side and one thing about the emotion is you suggested putting the emotion in the back seat.

00:25:55:08 - 00:26:10:05
Jason Barnard
Yeah, I prefer putting it next to me because I want to be able to see it. So my mind's eye, I can actually see it on my right hand side. I want to know it's there. I think that's important because if I forget it's there, it will sneak back in.

00:26:10:06 - 00:26:17:01
Itamar Marani
Interesting. So it's just something I need to be vigilant of. This thing is going to try to creep back in all the time. It can blindside me from behind.

00:26:17:03 - 00:26:18:03
Jason Barnard
Yeah, exactly.

00:26:18:04 - 00:26:21:04
Itamar Marani
Interesting. That's a really good point.

00:26:21:06 - 00:26:24:02
Jason Barnard
Maybe I've thought it's something.

00:26:24:04 - 00:26:38:21
Itamar Marani
I've always try to learn, but I think to be truthful, so especially with the one on one clients I viewed a lot of times as the lot, that's where I get to learn more and just trying out these new things and trying out what works and what doesn't and being able to implement the new features of our system, so to speak.

00:26:38:23 - 00:27:02:06
Itamar Marani
So I am always ready to learn. I appreciate that I'm there's one thing I wanted to get here with that was for you that we worked on, Remember the ABC Triangle and ABC a waste identify when you're being emotional. Was that also a big thing for you or for you to just try to notice and ask yourself, When am I being emotional?

00:27:02:08 - 00:27:12:00
Jason Barnard
I don't even remember what the ABC triangle is. I don't think we ever discussed it, or if we did, I forgot about it completely. I just thought this is my emotion package and put it to one side.

00:27:12:02 - 00:27:14:22
Itamar Marani
Interesting. Okay, so.

00:27:14:22 - 00:27:18:08
Jason Barnard
You can explain it to me now if you want. What is the ABC triangle?

00:27:18:10 - 00:27:36:05
Itamar Marani
It's what we worked on. The basic understand. I can tell that the part of me that I don't want to take over is starting to arise. When a I feel a certain way affect comes up or b I sense something in my body. I behave a certain way or c there's a cognitive. I tell myself a certain thing.

00:27:36:05 - 00:27:45:00
Itamar Marani
I repeat a phrase in my head, like our people thinking this from that or whatever it may be a figure or something that's more the affect aspect.

00:27:45:02 - 00:28:08:12
Jason Barnard
Yeah, I completely forgot about that today. But what I've been doing is simply saying, Oh, here's an emotion and I don't analyze where it comes from or why it's there. I just say it's an emotion. I've got to put it to one side, make the decision, get on with things. So it's been very cerebral because just waiting for the emotions to appear and putting putting them to one side.

00:28:08:12 - 00:28:13:05
Jason Barnard
And it's worked very well. But I think I might now start thinking about the ABC.

00:28:13:06 - 00:28:31:08
Itamar Marani
Yeah, it's so I'll put it this way, but I think sometimes is the last thing we recognize. What I've noticed, noticing that for me to actually be inside something and like you know, in the moment and recognize, oh wait, I'm getting overexcited or I'm getting a bit scared that it's sometimes hard to notice, you know what I mean?

00:28:31:10 - 00:28:51:08
Itamar Marani
But if I can say, whenever I get overexcited, I notice that I had my foot jitters a bit or that I crack my knuckles, or that all of a sudden I go to the fridge because I or if I have four cups of coffee, some of the guys like that sort of thing or the cognitive effect suddenly here in my head like, Oh, let's get to it, let's go.

00:28:51:10 - 00:29:09:00
Itamar Marani
Oh, this will never work. Well, people think those are things that are often because they're more tangible, they're more clear, they're easier to catch. And because you're there to catch, I can stop the emotion while it's still a smaller thing. So of like it's so big and overwhelming that now I notice it.

00:29:09:02 - 00:29:10:16
Jason Barnard
Hmm.

00:29:10:18 - 00:29:11:21
Itamar Marani
Does that make sense?

00:29:11:23 - 00:29:17:02
Jason Barnard
It does make sense. I mean, I haven't been using it because I think I don't need it.

00:29:17:04 - 00:29:20:06
Itamar Marani
It's great. I think, again, to me, it's everybody has different things.

00:29:20:08 - 00:29:41:14
Jason Barnard
Yeah. I mean, for me, it's really clear. I don't think I get it right every time, but I don't think anybody ever does. But for me, the emotion rises or emotion starts taking over the decision making process. And I can see it in my brain, which is why I can grab it with my right hand and put it to one side.

00:29:41:14 - 00:29:44:21
Jason Barnard
And then I can still see it because for me it's a thing.

00:29:44:23 - 00:30:08:20
Itamar Marani
That I get. So I do want to circle back to one thing you said earlier, which I think is really, really big. So a lot of people have this notion of only my negative emotions are the things I need to to put away, so to speak. And you said something that's very true, which most people don't recognize. Also, you said, when I get overexcited now, people can say excited is a positive, quote unquote emotion.

00:30:08:22 - 00:30:28:11
Itamar Marani
But the reality is, whether you're overexcited or excited, it's not you being calm and logical and strategic and I think that's a big thing. People either don't recognize. They think, oh, I'm excited. It's a positive thing, but it's not. If it's effective, it's actually getting you to do the things that, you know you should be doing. The cosmological and strategic matter.

00:30:28:13 - 00:30:30:16
Itamar Marani
And I want to hear your thoughts on that.

00:30:30:18 - 00:30:50:06
Jason Barnard
Yeah, I mean, I agree. I like getting overexcited. It's my nature. But we've also discussed it's not my nature. It's the way I've learned to exist and be. And I've got so used to it. I feel that it's such an integral part of me. I can't remove it. But I can actually can. I can move it to one side while I have to or where it's helpful to where it's necessary.

00:30:50:06 - 00:31:11:12
Jason Barnard
Sometimes I do need it in work because it helps me to move forward. So what I'm trying to do, sometimes I don't need it and it's actually damaging. So I need to move it to one side. And the other interesting thing is for my personal life, being overenthusiastic is really good for day to day life because it makes it fun and it makes it fun for me and it makes it fun for the people around me, the people I love.

00:31:11:14 - 00:31:32:20
Jason Barnard
And what I've noticed is that there are very now for me, a distinction between the two. When I'm in the professional mode, there's a lot less fun going on now than they used to be. And the trick has been, and I hope I will continue to maintain it, is retain the fun and the over enthusiasm when I move into the personal life, because that's what makes my personal life fun.

00:31:32:22 - 00:31:41:17
Jason Barnard
And that distinction is something I never made before. There wasn't a difference between professional may and day to day me with my family. And now there is by.

00:31:41:19 - 00:31:46:03
Itamar Marani
So in your day to day you do take off the red shirt.

00:31:46:05 - 00:31:48:20
Jason Barnard
I dust off the red shirt.

00:31:48:22 - 00:32:10:10
Itamar Marani
I think it's a big thing. So people don't recognize that these tokens help us. So just for context, Jason has a red shirt that's part of his branding and it's somewhere you see a lot of research from online. You see that everywhere. And also people have the notes like I always wear the exact same pole, like if you've been listening to the pod since episode one a couple of years ago, it's the exact same one, not that different.

00:32:10:12 - 00:32:39:18
Itamar Marani
I have different shirts with the exact same brand it's called, and having these tokens to remind us, Oh, in this context, this is and using your words is what helpful? This behavior is helpful. But when I change contexts and I have a physical reminder, for example, I wear something different or whatever it may be recognized. Different behaviors are helpful and it's all about what you said is the context of what's helpful in this situation for this environment, how I'm trying to operate.

00:32:39:20 - 00:33:01:12
Itamar Marani
That's one. And two, what I think and again, I'm getting in a bit of a different way of doing things, really important is you can't just tell yourself, I'm going to be a robot. I don't want to get overexcited. I don't it's not realistic. However, if you can say, you know what I recognize this is not a helpful behavior in the workspace, but it's still something I enjoy life or just it's Anita might like.

00:33:01:15 - 00:33:18:07
Itamar Marani
I like to get amped up. It's going to go somewhere. So if you can preemptively say, This is where I want to channel that in my personal life and my hobbies, whatever it may be, then you can, so to speak, get it out of your system so that when you show up to work, it's not there to take over because you already kind of invented it.

00:33:18:09 - 00:33:36:00
Itamar Marani
And I think there's a big trend of, you know, deep work. Do the first thing 4 hours in the morning, deep work block and all that. And it is very effective for a lot of people. However, some people have a little bit of crazy in them. And if they don't get that crazy out at the beginning of the day, it goes somewhere.

00:33:36:05 - 00:33:51:13
Itamar Marani
It just happens with me as well. A lot of other clients that I know that they have to do something a bit exciting at the beginning of the day, hard work out whatever it might be, because only afterwards they able to become strategic. Otherwise, if they get on the business during their quote unquote deep work time.

00:33:51:15 - 00:34:14:15
Jason Barnard
Okay, well, that's new for me, but delightful to know. And I'll tell you something as well about the shirt of taking it a step further. So this is I love everything in threes. A friend of mine told me he was a teacher, a high school teacher, and he said he had the best success rates in the region with one of the worst schools in one of those deprived areas.

00:34:14:17 - 00:34:36:16
Jason Barnard
And people were asking me how he did it and he said everything in threes. If I've only got two points to make and invent a third, even if it's not important, I've got four points. But integrate the fourth into the third. Kids will always remember in threes they won't remember four and two doesn't seem important and I've stuck to that for the last six seven years obsessively.

00:34:36:16 - 00:35:01:21
Jason Barnard
And it works every time. It's astonishing. So everything in threes. I only had the red shirt and then not red shirt, that's only two. And then somebody on the other people in the team pointed out to me or said to me, Actually, when you wear the red shirt, you're intimidating Manchester. So now I have the red shirt for public appearances, explaining things, being on shows, meeting with clients.

00:35:01:21 - 00:35:33:12
Jason Barnard
It's the the persona, the brands up going. And I actually like the brands of that guy when I'm writing, wearing the red shirt, Then I have green shirts for team and blue or any other color for my private life, and it seems a bit weird and I'm not completely obsessive about the green and the blue, but it has really help because not wearing the red shirt in front of the team has helped to for them to get closer to me or to not be as intimidated by me.

00:35:33:14 - 00:35:54:08
Jason Barnard
And the green allows me to separate my work with a team, my work as the brand set guy promoting Celtic with the red shirt and my private life. And I'm sure it's not 100% like that, but I put a blue shirt on and I get fun. I put the red shirt on, I explain things, I put the green shirt on, then I start to organize everything.

00:35:54:10 - 00:36:14:16
Itamar Marani
That's great and there's absolutely truth to it. There's no way around it for anyone who's listening. And that struggles to kind of differentiate between life and work and they feel like they're the same person. It's not effective the way you want to show up. How's that for your clients versus how you want to show up for your team versus how you want to show up for your missus or for your kids or whatever.

00:36:14:16 - 00:36:34:01
Itamar Marani
It would be The completely different one kind of attitude and to use your words, is not helpful when you're talking to your clients, but it's very helpful when you're talking to your team. It's very helpful for me to be at what's called a little bit silly or goofy when I'm with my three year old, not so much when I'm with my clients and being able to have something, help your mind.

00:36:34:01 - 00:36:49:01
Itamar Marani
You switch onto this and switch off from that is again very helpful. I think it's great point. I do it a bit obsessively personally. Like I just have my work shirts in the office and I don't wear them outside the space of the office, but similar to a conference presented.

00:36:49:02 - 00:36:52:21
Jason Barnard
So I do the red shirt, the green shirt and the blue shirt obsessively.

00:36:52:23 - 00:36:56:04
Itamar Marani
It works that. If it works, it works.

00:36:56:06 - 00:36:58:01
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

00:36:58:03 - 00:37:14:11
Itamar Marani
Any any kind of last thing. Some of you want it to bring up something that we didn't mention that you like. This was very, very helpful for me and I'd love it for somebody else if they're kind of struggling to really step up to the next level of success. I think if they heard this, it could help them, anything like that.

00:37:14:13 - 00:37:45:11
Jason Barnard
Well, I mean, it's something you said. I think the first time we talked was a lot of us think that the way to move forwards is to put your foot down on the accelerator, try harder, work how to get up earlier. And in fact, the most effective thing is to take the handbrake off. And take the handbrake off for me has been identifying the emotional aspect of my decision making, removing that, putting it to one side, and simply that I'm not working harder, I'm not pushing harder, I'm not getting up earlier, but I'm being significantly more effective.

00:37:45:12 - 00:38:06:00
Itamar Marani
It's awesome. And also I want to wrap it up with we're kind of sharing how Jason I first actually met, so we met at a conference we were both speaking and usually when I interact with other speakers there's always a little bit you don't need to collect puff up everybody like I'm a big deal, I'm a big deal.

00:38:06:00 - 00:38:29:05
Itamar Marani
There's a little bit of that. And one of the things that was very, very impressive to me about you is that first off, you were very open. You're okay. This is what I do. I'm really good at it. Great. That's clear. Now, this is also where I have a little bit of a challenge and when I propose something to think about, you were really open to it.

00:38:29:07 - 00:38:57:01
Itamar Marani
And I think it's a superpower that enables so much growth. And I think we had that conversation. We were between talks, but then we actually stayed outside for another 40 minutes and just chatted about it. And I think that all the tools that we discussed here, all the strategies, whether it's from the shirts to understanding the cadence of the meetings, whatever it may be, none of these tools are applicable If there isn't that openness to say, Oh, I'm hungry to get better.

00:38:57:03 - 00:39:13:21
Itamar Marani
And I think that was such a strength of yours that you had that. And honestly, like, hats off to you. And I have it's it's rare that I see it at such with such a clear conviction that I am willing to get better and I want to get better and I want to put an ego aside in order for that to a side and from the backseat.

00:39:13:23 - 00:39:14:23
Itamar Marani
Yeah.

00:39:15:01 - 00:39:34:22
Jason Barnard
Well, I mean, I think I mean, I really want to get better. My aim is to improve whatever I do. And when I meet somebody and understand that they're smart and they have something to teach me a lesson. I often talk a lot because I talk about what I do. As you said, I know I'm good at it.

00:39:34:22 - 00:39:51:09
Jason Barnard
I know what I do is valuable. I know how I do. It works. I know that I can bring value to people situations, but then I can also see from the other side when somebody really knows what they're talking about can bring me value. I want to listen because I want to learn. Because I want to improve.

00:39:51:11 - 00:40:01:23
Itamar Marani
Yeah, that's a big thing. So with that knowing, like, say that you know what you do, where can people find you? They want to reach out if they want to connect, if they want to learn more about how like you.

00:40:02:00 - 00:40:29:12
Jason Barnard
Or Kalki is written, I see you can go to Katie BBC.com. Our special talent is to change the way the AI search and assistive engines perceive you and how they represent you. So if you search my name, Jason Barnhardt Gyatso, and be an auntie, you will see a result on Google or on chat to exactly the way I want it.

00:40:29:13 - 00:40:46:13
Jason Barnard
They perceive me the way I want because I present myself in a very systematic manner. They perceive me the way I expect them to or I want them to, and they therefore represent me exactly as I want to be represented. So if you search my name, you get the choice of where to engage with me. Come to my personal site for my personal life.

00:40:46:15 - 00:40:56:23
Jason Barnard
Katy CNBC.com for Business, Twitter, My Articles, LinkedIn, Facebook, The Knowledge Graph Conference. It's up to you.

00:40:57:01 - 00:41:23:14
Itamar Marani
We'll have all the links in the show notes below. Listen, I want to say thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. And for the audience, I want to leave you with this. A lot of times, a lot of guys, they want to go bigger and then ask themselves like, what's going on here? The reality is, most of the time there's an emotional part of you that you're not aware of that is actually purposely keeping you small because it thinks it's safe.

00:41:23:16 - 00:41:44:09
Itamar Marani
It's things, it's more stable. And once you can differentiate between the logical part and that emotional part of, you know, how Jason said to put it either to the side or to the back seat, whatever it may be, that's when you can really start to go big. Until then, you'll always be fighting this invisible battle, which is very hard to win.

00:41:44:11 - 00:42:00:23
Itamar Marani
And if that's something this episode resonated with you, I invite you to explore that. So what is the part of me that is holding me back? And obviously, if you want my personnel to do this, you're welcome to play in the arena. What I've always felt. So from that I want to say thank you again just for coming on.

00:42:01:01 - 00:42:03:00
Itamar Marani
Really appreciate it. Lots of good stuff.

00:42:03:02 - 00:42:03:17
Jason Barnard
And thank you to.