Judge People | Elite Performance Podcast #41

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:20
Itamar Marani
People think that as soon as you judge, you're going to be mean, you're going to put someone down. And again, if that's what your desired outcome out of judging is, don't do it. But if your frame of reference is I'm going to judge someone in order to figure out what is effective or not effective for me living the kind of life I want, it's a great thing to do, it's a very effective thing to do.

00:00:19:22 - 00:00:37:13
Itamar Marani
You shouldn't judge people. Well, why not? Who came up with all this PC nonsense that you shouldn't judge? And while I get that this is a controversial thing. I have never really found someone to break my chain of logic when it comes to this concept of judging people. And I think it's a rational thing why you should judge.

00:00:37:13 - 00:00:54:21
Itamar Marani
I'm going to explain why. We're going to also explain what the outcome is if you don't judge people. What are the downsides of that and why there's actually no real risk to you, to other people or whatever it may be. So first off, this if this subject triggers you, immediately chill out, relax a little bit. Okay. Listen to the whole podcast.

00:00:54:22 - 00:01:17:02
Itamar Marani
Understand it. We're not saying be negative to people. It is going to explain why judging people can have a really big effective impact on your quality of life, your business, and so on. And really, we're going to answer three main questions about this part. First is you judging someone, actually hurting anyone, whether them or you. Two, is you not judging actually helping anyone again, either you or them?

00:01:17:04 - 00:01:35:06
Itamar Marani
And finally, what are the consequences of not judging and why people actually avoid it? Not just because it's nice. What do they actually avoid doing this thing? So we're going to kick things off. First off, I want to say welcome, Alex. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. Cool. So first off, before we get started, any thoughts on the subject matter?

00:01:35:07 - 00:01:39:16
Itamar Marani
We talked a little about this, the event, but I'm curious to hear if you have any initial thoughts about it.

00:01:39:18 - 00:01:59:10
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, it's a it's a big subject. Like it's it invokes an uncomfortable feeling. And I'm interested to getting into the details as to why it invokes that uncomfortable feeling. Yeah, it's my suspicions, But yeah, it really interested to hear your perspective on this.

00:01:59:12 - 00:02:05:02
Itamar Marani
Awesome. All right, so first of factual here. Why do you think it invokes such an uncomfortable feeling?

00:02:05:04 - 00:02:33:23
Alexander De Fina
I think it invokes not comfortable feeling because it's it's like tasting beer or to ourselves, you know? And so it's if I'm judging somebody else, how are they judging me? And I think that most people have probably had situations where they have, in their mind, been unfairly or inaccurately judged. And it has a lot of them might just date back to indoctrination of, you know, good and bad.

00:02:33:23 - 00:02:42:01
Alexander De Fina
And it could be a lot of cultural, religious reasons why that word of judgment carries pretty heavy gravity to it.

00:02:42:03 - 00:03:02:03
Itamar Marani
Yeah, Merrill said. I think also what's interesting thing you said there is that it evokes a feeling. And that's the thing that I've rarely heard somebody say You shouldn't judge people because rationally, logically, this is not a productive use of your time. It's ineffective and so on and so on. People just say it feels uncomfortable. Like you see little people like recoiling to themselves and they feel so uncomfortable.

00:03:02:05 - 00:03:10:08
Itamar Marani
And what I want to say is that there is those feelings, but that doesn't mean that those feelings are facts and what we should follow. And I want to break down why today?

00:03:10:10 - 00:03:11:04
Alexander De Fina
Cool.

00:03:11:06 - 00:03:32:12
Itamar Marani
Cool. So first, let's break it down. Is you judging someone hurting anyone? Okay. So, like, again, there's all this notion like, you shouldn't judge or it's bad to judge. And I try to understand, like, why that is. And I think people think you shouldn't do that because it's me, right now, since I think it all comes down to intentions.

00:03:32:17 - 00:03:48:18
Itamar Marani
And this is the part a lot of people miss out, they don't go further than that. So if you're judging someone in order to put them down, to dehumanize them, to be cruel to them, to obliterate them, or act as an anchor, to feel better about yourself in relation to them, that's a very, very ineffective use of your time.

00:03:48:20 - 00:04:04:16
Itamar Marani
That doesn't help anyone. But if you're judging them with the purpose of having a frame of which to reference like what actions they're taking and is it effective in getting them the life that you say I want this life or won't that life? Is it actually getting them? The result is being able to see it as data points.

00:04:04:16 - 00:04:25:23
Itamar Marani
I think that's phenomenal. Like people don't get that you can judge a person negatively for their behavior and still have compassion for them as a person. You can think and say like, this is wrong and I don't agree with it and it's not effective towards me living my values, the life that I want while still having an understanding for where they come from and not having to be mean to them or a jerk in any which way.

00:04:26:01 - 00:04:45:13
Itamar Marani
It's like the definition of judge is to form an opinion or a conclusion about it's not to treat poorly. And I think that's where there's such a disconnect. It's like you're allowed to form decision to form an opinion, make a decision and not treat someone poorly. I think people don't like to accept that for whatever reason.

00:04:45:15 - 00:04:55:20
Alexander De Fina
Do you think the challenge there is the separation of what's what's actually being judged? So what do you mean by that?

00:04:55:22 - 00:05:27:11
Alexander De Fina
My understanding what you said before was that making a judgment on someone carries this sort of all encompassing judgment on them as a person, rather than contextualizing that judgment relevant to the thing. So I could say, hey, this doctor might have a totally different world view to me, and I disagree with everything they agree with politically or whatever, but they're the best doctor to be treating my potential, my, my, my medical issue at the time or whatever.

00:05:27:12 - 00:05:38:16
Alexander De Fina
So in the context of being the best doctor that political views or anything else has no relevance, so separating the criteria of what we're judging.

00:05:38:18 - 00:05:57:23
Itamar Marani
Yeah, I think that's very valid. Like if you're looking for a doctor, like the way I look at it as I try to judge in general, because the person here again, we all have, we should have our pre-defined sets of ethics and values and what we deem as important, like our priorities in life, Right. So I can simply judge like, is this person on a whole acting in alignment with what I would want?

00:05:58:01 - 00:06:13:20
Itamar Marani
Do I judge that? And then do I want to emulate their behavior? If I'm just using that as a frame of reference, like to learn from somebody, for example, like in, let's say, martial arts and jujitsu. If I can look at a black belt and I can see what he's doing and I'm a white belt and I say, Oh, I judge that to be very effective, I should do that.

00:06:13:20 - 00:06:30:02
Itamar Marani
If I want to be a black belt, great. If I'm not interested in that, then I should just be. That's an inefficient use of time. He's just rolling on the mat with other guys, but it's it just what do I want in life? And then is the behavior this person exhibiting, do I want to emulate that? Is that good or bad?

00:06:30:02 - 00:06:50:23
Itamar Marani
Is that effective or ineffective, basically towards me getting what I want? I shouldn't say good or bad. It's not that I'm good or bad. Is it effective towards me getting what I want out of life or is it ineffective? Like, for example, when I go places and I see, let's say the waiter, just like in a restaurant, all they're doing is just on their ticktock all day, and that's very ineffective.

00:06:50:23 - 00:07:08:11
Itamar Marani
I just that is a very ineffective behavior if they want to live a better life. Mm hmm. Now, does that mean I should be cruel to them or not pleasant or not tip them or whatever it would be? Absolutely not. That's their choice. But I'm also very comfortable saying, like, I judge this behavior and it just how this person is conducting themselves as ineffective.

00:07:08:11 - 00:07:15:17
Itamar Marani
If they want to have a better life, they want to they're going to get a better life. It's all subjective. I get that. But a better life through what I consider a better life.

00:07:15:19 - 00:07:17:11
Alexander De Fina
Got it.

00:07:17:13 - 00:07:18:22
Itamar Marani
What do you think of that?

00:07:19:00 - 00:07:41:10
Alexander De Fina
Those words are helpful. The effective versus ineffective. So I could look at a task or the context like the doctor or the jujitsu was a great example that jujitsu practitioner might be great to learn from. See, might say this is a very effective knowledge transfer, but you're not necessarily making a judgment of them as a person. They might still be a terrible person and great.

00:07:41:10 - 00:07:54:03
Alexander De Fina
If jujitsu does their effective at teaching jiu jitsu, the judgment can be contextualized there, but they might also be, you know, the values or the moral code might be something which you celebrate.

00:07:54:05 - 00:08:13:09
Itamar Marani
Yeah, and I think it's perfectly fine to doesn't say like I actually like I think this person is a bad person and he's a really good instructor or he's a really good doctor. We've all seen that also in business. Or you find someone who's, let's call it morally bankrupt, but they're financially successful and we can still learn things from them.

00:08:13:11 - 00:08:14:04
Alexander De Fina
Mm hmm.

00:08:14:06 - 00:08:27:05
Itamar Marani
But I can judge this person to be like, on a general level, I don't want to be in his shoes. I don't want to be that person. I would love to have some of his business documents about I should learn from. But in general person, like I judge this person as someone who I don't want to emulate. And that's what I'm trying to get.

00:08:27:05 - 00:08:31:17
Itamar Marani
I'm trying to get data points from this. I can learn, I can better like I can better myself.

00:08:31:19 - 00:08:34:03
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, that's like.

00:08:34:05 - 00:08:51:13
Itamar Marani
Like I used to work for a billionaire. I used to be as head of security. I absolutely judge him. I thought he had a horrible relationship with his children. He had a horrible relationship with his ex-wife and his current wife. He was a miserable, miserable human being. And I rarely see him smile or being able to enjoy himself.

00:08:51:15 - 00:08:56:17
Itamar Marani
With that said, like, of course, I can learn a lot from him on how to make money if I want to do it in that way, which he did.

00:08:56:19 - 00:08:57:16
Alexander De Fina
Mm hmm.

00:08:57:18 - 00:09:09:06
Itamar Marani
It's like, yeah, I can judge and say, like, this is not for me. I'm not interested. I think this is a bad way to live a life. Now, with that, it doesn't mean that I need to be cruel.

00:09:09:08 - 00:09:25:02
Alexander De Fina
Have you had your judgment change over time? There's a new perspective that's found or new insight that's gained relevant to a particular relationship. And then the judgment changes.

00:09:25:04 - 00:09:42:11
Itamar Marani
It's interesting. Like my initial reaction to that is that my judgment hasn't changed. My my ability to be compassion has. I think when I was younger, it would literally be that if I judge someone like is ineffective, the thought I was just like up out of my life, done like like this is not someone I want to interact with.

00:09:42:12 - 00:10:04:19
Itamar Marani
I didn't have compassion was it's all like a learned skill that I had to develop. And for me, I think that was a bigger thing to be able to actually judge someone like always just from a very dry mechanical perspective. But then also if I judge it negatively, that it's not something I'm interested in emulating their values or whatever, maybe I can still have compassion understanding for where they come from.

00:10:04:21 - 00:10:08:22
Itamar Marani
That, to me, I think was my bigger change. But if that happened to you.

00:10:09:00 - 00:10:38:20
Alexander De Fina
It has happened to me. I'm thinking through it. I think that what was probably happening at the time is my judgment was through a lens of what I was looking for at the time. So at times in my life where I was a lot more aspirational, a lot more aspirational, got kind of finance or business, I only valued people who I saw as sort of above me better than me achieving more than me.

00:10:38:22 - 00:10:59:14
Alexander De Fina
And I probably caused some judgment on people in a very, very narrow scope. Is this person teaching me things? Are they sort of of value to me in terms of my ascension? And if not, I put a maybe it was just clunky judgment on my behalf, but it was like they know they're not important, they're not relevant to me.

00:10:59:14 - 00:11:14:15
Alexander De Fina
So my judgment was of no value, but I wasn't looking at their ability to nurture their community, their ability to be a great father, husband, etc.. It was a very, very narrow band of perspective there also. So.

00:11:14:17 - 00:11:29:19
Itamar Marani
Yeah, to be honest, I don't find too much fault in that. We were saying again, like if you were saying I judge them poorly and then I also acted like a schmuck to them, that's one thing. But if you're saying, you know, like I just judgment someone whom I'm not interested in, like connecting with or learning from right now.

00:11:29:21 - 00:11:38:20
Itamar Marani
So I made that judgment call and then I just like they did them and I did mean there was never any animosity there or friction. Yeah, that's perfectly fine.

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:47:18
Alexander De Fina
Though. Yeah. To hear you elaborate on that, I don't believe in those situations. I was being a schmuck to them, so I can give myself a bit of a pasta.

00:11:47:19 - 00:11:58:14
Itamar Marani
Yeah, but. So there's nothing wrong with that. So what if you don't? Yeah, You made a judgment call saying this is where I want to get to in life. That's what's important for me right now. And like, these people don't fit that.

00:11:58:16 - 00:12:08:17
Itamar Marani
And if someone's a recovering narcotic, you should probably judge the fact that other narcotics are not the people you should be hanging out with. That's not going to help it.

00:12:08:19 - 00:12:35:23
Alexander De Fina
If your if your judgment hasn't changed, but your compassion, your ability to deploy or have a sense of compassion has improved. What do you make of like the wartime leader versus peacetime leader sort of avatars and the obviously, the environment, the situation might depend on one person having more or less value to the community based on on the environment.

00:12:36:01 - 00:12:39:20
Itamar Marani
What do you mean by that? I'm not sure I'm following that. I have a different perspective of wartime or peacetime leader.

00:12:39:23 - 00:13:06:19
Alexander De Fina
Sure, sure. So there's a there's a there's a person in our tribe, the bloodthirsty savage you don't want around the kids, a wife. But if the marauding tribe comes over the hill, that's that's the guy we want to get behind. And so I really value that person in a serious situation. But in times of peace, I want the network as a collaborator, as a leader, as the uplift.

00:13:06:21 - 00:13:12:17
Alexander De Fina
I want a different personality type in a different external environment.

00:13:12:19 - 00:13:16:01
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So you're saying, what are my thoughts on this or what's the question?

00:13:16:01 - 00:13:26:04
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, Yeah. So I guess what are your thoughts in terms of casting judgment on the individual in relevance to the environment?

00:13:26:06 - 00:14:01:22
Itamar Marani
It's a really good question. So I would like the word that immediately comes to mind is utility. So again, if you're saying you're in a heinous war situation, you would probably need more of the wartime guys. If you're in a peacetime situation that's we need more and that's a personnel change. I think there's I've seen this in the military, like actually just on the macro level in the country, there's some officers that do a phenomenal time during wartime, but some officers do a phenomenal job at creating a new unit and training people up, but actually operating in the war and actually navigating that.

00:14:01:22 - 00:14:10:12
Itamar Marani
It's not their specialty. It doesn't judge narrowly just effectiveness of effective here. They're not effective there.

00:14:10:14 - 00:14:20:09
Alexander De Fina
That's that's a brilliant filter like the words that you use. Utility, effective, ineffective. That's a great filter for my understanding that between judgment and the individual.

00:14:20:11 - 00:14:44:02
Itamar Marani
Yeah, it's a to put it this way, I like how you're saying it feels uncomfortable saying is something good or bad that that feels very like judgy like bad. That's not a nice thing to do. But saying is something effective or ineffective, Is this of utility or is this not as a data point that I want to consider or not, it doesn't feel like something that's a rational idea, and I think that's the big thing.

00:14:44:02 - 00:15:03:02
Itamar Marani
It's like we're allowed to judge ideas, we're allowed to judge beliefs, we're encouraged to judge if our own behaviors are helping us or not. But we can't look at other people. That's not allowed. That's me. And I think that counts because most people think if I judge somebody else, that means I have to actually act like a schmuck to them.

00:15:03:02 - 00:15:17:11
Itamar Marani
I have to put them down if I think negatively. But what if I going to say I think their behaviors are ineffective. Therefore, I think the negative action towards what I want. So therefore I'm going to judge. That's not for me. And the more I collect those data points, the clear I can be about my thought process and what I want to do.

00:15:17:11 - 00:15:24:13
Itamar Marani
And the more I can drive towards my goals without having to put them down.

00:15:24:15 - 00:15:38:19
Alexander De Fina
What I'm taking from this is that I feel that a lot of my interpersonal interactions or where I can see some missteps in the past is unsophisticated. Judgment is not being clear about what it is. I'm judging.

00:15:38:21 - 00:15:40:07
Itamar Marani
What do you mean by that?

00:15:40:09 - 00:16:06:07
Alexander De Fina
So in the case of the way to the war time, some leaders, if I simply say, here's my perspective and is going through to the to the individual, there's no filter, there's no lens, then it seems clunky. It seems awkward. How am I making a judgment on this person? But if I put it through the filter of is this person effective at digging holes compared to this person, it's like, well, how many holes were dug in?

00:16:06:07 - 00:16:23:17
Alexander De Fina
And now this person is a better holding. Anytime I put something in between the judgment and the individual, effective or ineffective, what utility are they serving? That's where the judgment, I think, becomes very easy, because we are actually making that distinction like discernment in other dialogs all the time.

00:16:23:18 - 00:16:48:09
Itamar Marani
Yeah. I think something also very interesting that I'm hearing from you is on a general level, when we're actually not clear about our priorities, we're not we can't actually verbalize them. It's not that level of clarity and someone is misaligned with what we're doing. It doesn't feel nice because something feels off because we can't explain why. We just get a feeling and that feeling of off.

00:16:48:09 - 00:17:05:05
Itamar Marani
We end up sometimes projecting it onto them. And I think honestly, when I look back, I learned to be more compassionate when I actually was clear on what I deemed important enough. So when people went against it, it wasn't like, Oh, he's just a loser. He doesn't get it, or whatever it may be. It was like, Oh, he wants different things in life problem.

00:17:05:09 - 00:17:33:11
Itamar Marani
It may be not aware of it, but he probably wants different like different things in life. The actions he's taking are very ineffective towards what I want in life, but they're probably effective towards what he wants in life. If that's his current phase or whatever it may be. So it didn't create any internal animosity or angst inside. I was like, okay, just judging from what I want to get to, this will be an ineffective behavior and also, like if this person is constantly behaving in an ineffective manner and I know people's behaviors rub off on each other, I don't want to associate with this person.

00:17:33:13 - 00:17:51:06
Itamar Marani
This is not going to be a positive interaction. It's not going to be effective in getting me towards what I want. Now, that doesn't mean that I have to be mean to them after purposely shun them or be very like cold and demeaning them, which I probably was in my younger days since they probably I was in my younger days, I had that reputation that I would really like cut people with my words.

00:17:51:08 - 00:18:02:09
Itamar Marani
And that's why I think why was like I wasn't really clear on myself, so I didn't have that. Internal pieces say, this is not effective, I'm not interested.

00:18:02:11 - 00:18:21:09
Alexander De Fina
Hearing you add this context and nuance of how to test, how you deploy judgment is really, really helpful. Thinking back to the elite event, I could feel the temperature of the room changed when you were saying, You know, I feel that I'm better than a person because I think that we didn't have a sophisticated way.

00:18:21:11 - 00:18:22:00
Itamar Marani
Of.

00:18:22:02 - 00:18:41:16
Alexander De Fina
Of understanding where that judgment is coming from. And so it seems like a very polarizing, awkward thing of of judgment. But if you said, is this person effective at dot, dot, dot, that seems a lot more logical, not not a subjective label than a placement. Someone. Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:41:16 - 00:19:01:08
Itamar Marani
I think the way I said that was like, what? So for context of the lead event, we, we had a round question around table of questions and I think it was out and it was one of the guys who just said he was not comfortable saying he's better than other people and asked him why. And he was like, I don't think it's okay and I was okay.

00:19:01:08 - 00:19:16:18
Itamar Marani
Ask me if I'm comfortable, if I'm better than other people, and you just look at me as you. Don't you think you're better than other people as like a force? And it's like, I think I choose I make the effort to be like, I have clarified my values and then I make the effort to live. I think most people don't do that.

00:19:16:19 - 00:19:39:20
Itamar Marani
And I think that's what I'm better at, like playing this game of life at a more intentional level. I think some people are a lot better. I mean, other things, like probably people are a lot better than me at relaxing and unwinding or just like chilling out. But I think on a grand level, as far as somebody clarifies what they want in life and then they pursue it and they have to just once pursue it, I think I am playing that at a better level than most people.

00:19:39:22 - 00:19:55:09
Itamar Marani
And there's something actually I want to get into part two of the podcast, so I wanted to dig into too much. So if I like, I think clarifying that it's okay to judge and that it's not harmful, that's what gives you the leeway to actually do that. Like you said.

00:19:55:11 - 00:19:59:15
Alexander De Fina
And I think we we all judge all the time. Maybe we're just not aware.

00:19:59:17 - 00:20:19:04
Itamar Marani
If we just don't own it. I think that's a big part of it. Like we don't want to own it because they're going to. Judging is culturally seen as like, you shouldn't judge the like we've all heard that like, oh, you shouldn't judge people. And it's like, why not? Why not the rationality? Why not? Well, because it's me.

00:20:19:06 - 00:20:33:19
Itamar Marani
Okay? Why is it mean again? Like you don't have to treat someone poorly. You can just judge, you can form an opinion or a conclusion about them. It doesn't mean that you need to treat them poorly. Those two are not one in the same. It's not a chain that can be broken. You can say, okay, I can judge someone, I can form an opinion.

00:20:34:00 - 00:20:45:09
Itamar Marani
I can say this person is not for me. The way they're behaving is not for me. I don't want to sit there with my life and I can still be cordial to them. It doesn't mean that I've to put them down in some way.

00:20:45:11 - 00:20:48:06
Alexander De Fina
Yeah. Yeah. Really, really interesting.

00:20:48:08 - 00:21:12:10
Itamar Marani
Yeah. For me, there's not really a saying that I remember like hit home for me was that everyone is fighting a battle you have no idea about. Yeah. One of my mentors told me that once when I was really, like, starting to learn this whole, like, compassion thing. And I think that's true. That's absolutely true. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't judge what behaviors you agree or disagree with being compassionate.

00:21:12:12 - 00:21:31:15
Itamar Marani
For me, I don't think it means that you should just accept everything. I think that's nonsense. And it's not a way to live an intentional life. It's just the easy way out to say like, Oh, everyone's okay, everyone's special. So I guess everyone's fighting a battle, but you can still, like, figure out, okay, this is good for me or not, and I can do that without any kind of negativity towards that.

00:21:31:17 - 00:21:34:00
Itamar Marani
And I think that's the real goal.

00:21:34:01 - 00:21:51:12
Alexander De Fina
And what do you think stands behind that? Like our ability to actually see that clearly? Is it we're still worried about other people by transferring judgment back to us?

00:21:51:14 - 00:22:11:13
Itamar Marani
It's a good question. I think that's probably one thing. Maybe that's my blind spot because I was less concerned about that growing up. I think it's very plausible. It's like basically like we don't want to get judged, so we avoid doing it. It's like saying like, I'm not I don't see it. Like, not covering your eyes. I got to say it, it doesn't exist.

00:22:11:15 - 00:22:37:09
Itamar Marani
Nobody's judging anybody. You know what I mean? It's very plausible. Like for me, on a personal level, it was just that when I wasn't clear on what I wanted out of life and I saw people that I couldn't explain why, but I knew that they were doing other things like it. It created an agitation and like, then maybe my philosophies are wrong and someone's like prodding at it, you know what I mean?

00:22:37:11 - 00:23:03:16
Itamar Marani
And I got to know this on a conscious level, but I would get agitated by people. I would just again, like I wouldn't judge them and then just be like, dismissive. I would get this kind of of anger, almost like an aggression, because I felt like I had to fight. And for me, that was it. But what do you think it was for you and.

00:23:03:18 - 00:23:31:10
Alexander De Fina
I think it was at a certain stage of my own personal evolution. I was looking back at a person who I was seeing a decade earlier and looking at back at that person with a sense of internal resentment. I didn't like that version of myself. I didn't like the lack of ambition. I didn't like the let the lack of confidence drives decision making, how to structure my time, etc., etc..

00:23:31:12 - 00:23:52:03
Alexander De Fina
And so when I saw those characteristics appearing in other people, I probably had a disproportionate judgment on them because it was actually something internal about me that I didn't like. And when I saw it manifesting other people, I was like, Oh, I know what this looks like and I'm going to get as far away from that as possible.

00:23:52:03 - 00:24:23:09
Alexander De Fina
So I'm going to be a little bit quick to to make a judgment here. But understanding that doesn't have to be a negative. The judgment could simply just be that choosing to let someone into proximity or choosing how much influence they hold over you as opposed to. Yeah, because I just thought there's so much negative negativity behind that word judgment was you use effective, ineffective or just how much utility they provide is so much cleaner for me to understand in the word judgment.

00:24:23:11 - 00:24:41:06
Itamar Marani
But I, I think you said something so insightful, though. Like I said when you said that, I was like, okay, this actually what's going on with me as well. It's like I used to to have like this fear of being weak because I was once weak in the military and I had that like failure story that I didn't like.

00:24:41:08 - 00:25:06:23
Itamar Marani
And whenever someone around me was weak, I would judge them very harshly and I would be mean to them when I was younger. And I think it was because it poked in insecurity of mine, you know what I mean? And I think really once I was able to kind of move past that, that's when I enabled to those people, they didn't immediately cause me to get emotionally volatile because it was talking my own stuff and therefore there was just logic to it.

00:25:07:01 - 00:25:27:17
Itamar Marani
I think for me, maybe that was the threshold that once I forgot more of my insecurities and like seeing other people didn't help me on an emotional level like that, then it could actually be rational. It's okay, this actually effective, not effective. And that's it. And I've used from that like really heightened emotional perspective. I think it's such a good point that you brought.

00:25:27:19 - 00:25:51:09
Alexander De Fina
I've got a follow up question, but I want to be careful. I don't go for up on the next agenda is is if you look at like a really sensational example of that judgment. So it's like the hillbilly wearing the where the flag draped across them with the big sign saying no to gay marriage or you'll burn in hell for eternity.

00:25:51:10 - 00:26:15:17
Alexander De Fina
Someone who's already outwardly judgmental of maybe a group that's got nothing to do with them. So like the the cowboy rancher who's against gay marriage, that degree of judgment, do you think that that's a similar thing that's going on is when you look at that person? So what's going on with you? Like, why are you taking time out of your soul to travel across town and picket against gay marriage?

00:26:15:19 - 00:26:28:19
Alexander De Fina
Like, is it really that big of a deal for you? Like, how much is this actually affect your world or is there something inside of you which is is this is putting on which is invoking this this behavior, this judgment?

00:26:28:21 - 00:26:30:08
Itamar Marani
You mean inside of them?

00:26:30:10 - 00:26:32:03
Alexander De Fina
Yes.

00:26:32:05 - 00:26:52:10
Itamar Marani
It could be like it could be a lot of things that people need purpose. None. I mean, the people just need a cause to rally around. Sometimes it's to feel like they're smart or whatever it may be. It's like, honestly, people have their own biases for whatever reason, their thought process. Like for me, when I see someone like that, someone is probably not educated themselves very much, also doesn't actually have a purpose in life.

00:26:52:10 - 00:27:12:01
Itamar Marani
So this is what they end up focusing on. And this judge, it is someone I don't want to emulate and I want to understand. Why is he coming to these horrible lives, in my opinion, horrible life decision to go across town and picket and do all these things without actually going to make an impact and things sort of make an impact, It's probably pretty stupid.

00:27:12:03 - 00:27:38:06
Alexander De Fina
I like that's just part of the value that you bring, is having that very clinical way of actually seeing what the issue is and not clouded. So, you know, your your challenge might have been having to enhance a sense of compassion for other peoples as is maybe currently the other side of the spectrum and seeing things for what they actually are, not what they think they feel they are.

00:27:38:08 - 00:27:53:09
Itamar Marani
Yeah. So let's kind of like to put it into a rational like framework. So first you have to get clear on what you want. If you're not clear on what you actually want, what the outcome is, it's like you don't have the ability to judge something if it's good, if it's effective or ineffective in getting you towards that.

00:27:53:11 - 00:28:07:19
Itamar Marani
It's just like, Oh, does this feel icky or does it not feel like this is like culturally good or culturally about you have no lens into which judge something as effective as in fact, that's what physically I want. You want to like from what I experience in myself and I haven't thought about this enough, but it could be very true.

00:28:07:19 - 00:28:24:03
Itamar Marani
And all those you're saying by yourself, you need to first out figure out what are your emotional triggers that will cause anybody who you know doesn't make you feel good about yourself for you to go off the wall and be able to assess a lot of who you have to be at peace with. That like for me was, okay, I'm not weak anymore.

00:28:24:03 - 00:28:42:16
Itamar Marani
So when I see someone who's a bit weak or a bit slacking, I don't have to get so angry about this because I'm afraid they're showing like a mirror to my face, like you said. And if you get through that as well, then it's just really easy to say, okay, this logically, if they were ineffective and I could judge this without having any kind of emotional reaction.

00:28:42:18 - 00:29:08:16
Itamar Marani
Yeah, like I used to get I used to get so hard about, well, like when I was a higher belt and lower belts with, like, if somebody would quit in the middle of a round and jujitsu man, like, they would get it, like at the gym, like they would get it. And then I really, you know, it doesn't mean because I because the reality is I got so triggered because I saw my younger self in them and I really didn't like that.

00:29:08:18 - 00:29:24:01
Itamar Marani
And I also wasn't able to disassociate my younger self from who I am today. And I once I did that, that's okay. That person just quit. I just that isn't an effective behavior. It doesn't mean that I have to get emotionally riled up in any which way about this and just their decision.

00:29:24:03 - 00:29:27:00
Alexander De Fina
Mm hmm.

00:29:27:02 - 00:29:48:09
Alexander De Fina
That's that's a sophisticated way of looking at it. This using that particular example, I could also look at it like it must be frustrating to. To roll with someone in jujitsu, and they quit early. Maybe from their perspective, simply coming to the gym today was a huge milestone, a huge achievement based on whatever is going on in their life.

00:29:48:09 - 00:29:53:22
Alexander De Fina
So simply turn up and open the mats was a huge coming coming at the practice from different.

00:29:53:23 - 00:30:15:05
Itamar Marani
But yeah but again even like before that like where does it help me to judge? I can get emotional about something. How does that affect it? Like the the second question I wanted to bring up but we talked about is, is you not judging or or is you judging like helping anyone? You're not judging in any which way.

00:30:15:05 - 00:30:36:08
Itamar Marani
Like it doesn't help them. It doesn't help you, but you judging actually can help you if you can do it through a logical framework. And I say, okay, I'm clear on what I want. This doesn't trigger me emotionally. I can just say, is this an action that I would like to emulate or not? And if I can do that, it can really benefit me to judge someone and how their behavior.

00:30:36:10 - 00:30:48:04
Itamar Marani
And I don't have to put them down in any which way. Know, if I haven't crossed that emotional threshold, that's when I can likely get triggered. And that's when I lacked in a way that later on I won't be proud of.

00:30:48:06 - 00:31:12:10
Alexander De Fina
That's a really important distinction, is that the judgment doesn't have to like judgment, doesn't have an equal sign to some kind of negative behavior or yeah, verbalization. Judgment can simply just be a decision that you choose to spend less time where you choose not to, to take on that business partner or whatever the context is. The judgment doesn't have to be something negative.

00:31:12:12 - 00:31:35:12
Itamar Marani
It's the let's put it this way again, like we're allowed to judge data, we're allowed to judge ideas, we're allowed to judge beliefs. What if a person is just a combination of all of those together? And again, we should we can and we should judge the person to see if it lined up what we want and at the same time, we can be compassionate and nice to them.

00:31:35:14 - 00:31:58:20
Itamar Marani
The two don't have to contradict each other. I think that's the thing. People think that as soon as you judge, you're going to be mean. You're going to put someone down. And again, if that's what you're what you're what's your desired outcome out of judging is don't do it. But if your frame of reference is I'm going to judge someone in order to figure out what is effective, we're not effective for you living the kind of life I want to great thing to do.

00:31:58:20 - 00:32:16:14
Itamar Marani
It's a very effective thing to do. And also you can say when you just look at it from that rational perspective, it's probably not going to make you have this emotional reaction where you're going to want to be perhaps like spit out some emotional venom on somebody else. Mm hmm. Like like we talked about the example of the way that we talk about the event.

00:32:16:16 - 00:32:30:20
Itamar Marani
Like, I can see someone with their ticktock all day not doing what they want. And the mic. You know what? I bet you nobody ever talked to them the way I was talked to by some of like, mentors in my life that explained to me how ineffective this is in getting towards where they were in life. And that's a shame for them.

00:32:30:23 - 00:32:38:01
Itamar Marani
Absolutely. Recognize is not a behavior I want to and also I have a lot of compassion for them at the same time.

00:32:38:03 - 00:33:10:16
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, I can't help but think about how unhelpful judgment is. It's like I'm having a imagining standing outside any busy downtown area at 3:00 on a Sunday morning when all the drunkards are sort of calling out at the bars and nightclubs and to see that the chest things that are going on because someone said something about someone and just how much gravity judgment has a surface level, but how it's completely ineffective, completely unhelpful.

00:33:10:18 - 00:33:15:16
Alexander De Fina
There's just so much wasted time and energy.

00:33:15:18 - 00:33:17:07
Itamar Marani
But can I interject here.

00:33:17:09 - 00:33:18:01
Alexander De Fina
Please?

00:33:18:03 - 00:33:43:00
Itamar Marani
They're all being very emotional about it. It's an emotion like, are you judging me or you looking at whatever it may be? No one there is thinking, okay, like, actually, like, how are these people behaving? It's going to be helpful for me, is it not helpful for me? And that's it. That's the key difference. Like when you can judge someone without being emotionally involved with it, that's when you can get effective output out of it.

00:33:43:01 - 00:34:02:13
Itamar Marani
Then again, this is why it's not effective to judge someone on their behavior through this lens of is are they good or are they bad? I think that's when we get emotional. But rather if you just look at the lens of like, is what they're doing in life actually hurting them or helping them to live the kind of life that I would want, for example.

00:34:02:15 - 00:34:20:21
Itamar Marani
And then I can judge if what they're doing is effective or ineffective, if it's something I want to emulate or if it's something actually I want to do the exact opposite. It just data points. And if people don't give themselves permission to collect those data points because I'm not allowed to judge, you shouldn't judge. That's me. But again, I think that's nonsense.

00:34:20:21 - 00:34:36:15
Itamar Marani
You can absolutely judge. You don't have to put someone down after you judge and you can collect data points and clarify your thinking patterns. I think it's crucial to judge otherwise you're not going to think clearly.

00:34:36:17 - 00:34:53:20
Alexander De Fina
Yeah, separating the judgment from the emotion is, I think, what probably holds a lot of people back. I think it's a skill that you have this uniquely yours, but it's certainly not common through my lived experience is looking in judgment without the emotional.

00:34:53:22 - 00:35:09:10
Itamar Marani
Well, I think it's just the intention of it really, that what it comes down to. I think most people have never been given this kind of like permission by the outside world to have the intention of to judge people in the sake of clean data, collecting data. Sorry, because everyone's been told you shouldn't judge people, period.

00:35:09:12 - 00:35:10:08
Alexander De Fina
Yeah.

00:35:10:10 - 00:35:27:00
Itamar Marani
Again, if your intention is to put someone down that you shouldn't do, if your intention is I want to be a student of the world and I want to view other people and I want to see what they do, and then I want to judge, is this effective in me doing what I want in life and getting towards I want or is ineffective?

00:35:27:02 - 00:35:46:07
Itamar Marani
That's a great lens You should absolutely judge if that's what you're trying to do. That's your intention. And if that's your intention to actually get more intentional about life and what's good, what's effective or not effective, then by not judging, you're really hurting yourself. And that's what I wanted to get to it's like you're not doing this, you're hurting yourself.

00:35:46:07 - 00:35:53:22
Itamar Marani
You're denying yourself the ability to think clearly and to have a better frame of what helps you and what doesn't help you.

00:35:54:00 - 00:36:18:07
Alexander De Fina
I heard a clip the other day from Andrew Tate. He's one of those characters that, you know, I'm sort of very much on the fence about some of the stuff he says I agree with. I don't. Regardless, the court was most people allied to the idea that you are the sum of the five people closest to you. Most people get that to some extent, yet most people are hanging around five lists.

00:36:18:09 - 00:36:43:07
Alexander De Fina
Yep. And so if we were able to that judgment and say these are the things that I want in life and these are the attributes, behaviors, skills that I require, and I'm going to seek out or cultivate people that I have made a positive judgment about that I emulate those or in to drive me towards it, as opposed to Bob's a great guy and I've known him since high school.

00:36:43:09 - 00:37:17:19
Itamar Marani
Yeah, first day of friends school. You sat next to them on the bus. So that's what it is. I think like I, I agree with, with the principle behind the statement. He's obviously just trying to deliver. And I know very little of Andrew of who he is and he's very prolific. Dude, that it up. Basically what he's trying to say is like that that unless you're intentional about it and it just like the first person like you said you sit next to in class or whatever it may be, what's very probable is that those five people are not trying to get to the same place that you exactly are.

00:37:17:21 - 00:37:32:11
Itamar Marani
So therefore, if you guys are all playing the same game to get to that place, they're going to be losing at it because that's not actually the game they're playing. They're playing a different game know. And again, that's where I think you can have compassion and say it's either they're just losers, period. They have different interests in life.

00:37:32:14 - 00:37:52:08
Itamar Marani
They're trying to do different things. So of course you guys aren't going to align their interests and their what actions are going to be in effect in terms of getting where you want to go because they want to go to a different place. Yeah, and this is a way of thinking about it Here you are going to be the sum of the five people that that there is that definitely like rub on our personalities.

00:37:52:10 - 00:38:05:06
Itamar Marani
So if you're going with people who have very different intentions and very different ways to actually act about it, their intentions, then yes, you're going to lose this game trying to get to where you want to go. But again, like you don't have to be mean about and treat them like they're losers and be mean to them or whatever.

00:38:05:06 - 00:38:08:17
Itamar Marani
Let me be clear. This is not for me.

00:38:08:19 - 00:38:39:10
Alexander De Fina
I'm going through that right now and auditing my circles and saying, is everyone who's in this, you know, closest hemisphere them and someone that I actually want to need in order to level up my life. And unfortunately, the answer and quite a few others like Egypt, is no, I can still have the compassion. I can still say, you know, they're nice person, but my judgment in terms of what I'm gaining from this relationship is that this person is not helpful.

00:38:39:10 - 00:39:04:15
Alexander De Fina
In fact, check, they actually hold me back. That's been really, really apparent to me, you know, but I don't mean the arena and now I know late being around other people who want to grow, have challenging conversations, etc., etc. it's opened my eyes that I need to do, you know, an ongoing process of ordering the people closest to me through that lens of effective or ineffective or what?

00:39:04:15 - 00:39:16:23
Alexander De Fina
What utility does this person play in my life in terms of moving things forwards as opposed to just a an unbreakable bond of loyalty and proximity because of, you know, some shared history?

00:39:17:00 - 00:39:30:22
Itamar Marani
Yeah, I think it's such a valuable thing to do. And also what I want to add to that, because people are probably going to be listening to this and say like, Well, you guys are only focused on external results to this person. I'll be telling you to help me like build a bigger business or whatever. For me, that's absolutely not true.

00:39:31:00 - 00:39:52:07
Itamar Marani
There are people in my life that I just want to have because I would like to emulate their level of kindness and their level of thoughtfulness. Others, I think that's so valuable, yeah, but again, like someone who's I can judge them as having a very ineffective life, like I don't like how they're doing. I like how they're living because I think they're a selfish individual, even if they're really successful in business.

00:39:52:09 - 00:40:05:02
Itamar Marani
I don't want that for myself. I can judge that too. It's not just about the external things. I think that's really important to say. You should also judge people on ethics and their values, all that kind of just as well. Is this from you or is it not.

00:40:05:04 - 00:40:25:17
Alexander De Fina
In your inner circle? Do you have any contrasting characters to people that in their own ways add value to your life? Do you deeply value those relationships? But then on a on a sort of balance sheet, they're polar opposites, each other, whether it's personality, skill sets, etc..

00:40:25:19 - 00:40:49:22
Itamar Marani
Polar opposites, I'm not sure there's a lot of contrast. So like even me and my wife, we think very differently things. We think very differently about certain goals that we have. What's important to her is not what's important to me and vice versa. And I recognize, though she provides, she enriches my life so much and things would be blindspots of mine.

00:40:50:00 - 00:41:09:08
Itamar Marani
And that's a giant reason why I value her so much. It's like she without her, I would be blind to some things which are her strengths and like and things that I do on the business. But even just like how to better enjoy the fruits of our labor, for example, how to be more present, those are things that she's much more aware and better at than I am right now.

00:41:09:10 - 00:41:11:09
Itamar Marani
And I really like, I think of this.

00:41:11:09 - 00:41:40:09
Alexander De Fina
Valuable because you've had that sophisticated approach to judgment of saying these attributes is assisting me because there's blind spots in my life and I can, I can learn from this and be a better version of myself because of this union with another person, as opposed to a very unsophisticated approach of judgment, which would be this person is not exactly the carbon copy of me, therefore they're bad beyond their.

00:41:40:11 - 00:41:57:04
Itamar Marani
I think that I think beyond their bad. It's like, well, they're not the carbon copy of me. So is something wrong with me? I don't want to know that That's, I think, a big thing like this. In preparing for this podcast, I just googled why you shouldn't judge others. I was curious to see what would come up and the first result.

00:41:57:06 - 00:42:26:11
Itamar Marani
This is what the first results on Google. It says this By constantly seeing the bad in others, we train our minds to find the bad. This can lead to an increase in stress. Stress can weaken the immune system and cause high blood pressure fatigue, depression, anxiety and even stroke. And I was like, That is the weakest shit I've ever heard that if you can't accept that there's flaws in you that you should work on and you don't want to have those exposed as I go play in the kiddy pool and life in general, like for real, for sure.

00:42:26:15 - 00:42:31:13
Itamar Marani
That's the part. I'm okay judging someone and saying, Oh, what they're doing is much better than what I'm doing.

00:42:31:15 - 00:42:45:03
Alexander De Fina
It's not even that. It's even based in fact, like if you were sick and you needed surgery. So, you know, we've got two doctors. This surgeon is the best in the world at treating what you've got for this guy. Average doctor, the great guy.

00:42:45:03 - 00:42:46:02
Itamar Marani
Loves fishing.

00:42:46:07 - 00:42:52:11
Alexander De Fina
You know, great dad to his kids. Yep. That's cool. Take the best in the business. Exactly what I need.

00:42:52:13 - 00:43:18:14
Itamar Marani
Yeah, And I think that's an extreme situation where people give themselves permission to judge. But on a surface level, you don't do that when it's not a necessity, but it's like it is a necessity because it's your life. I think really it's easier for people to say, I don't judge and feel really good about themselves and to say, I've made the effort to clear my key values and wants and needs and why they're important for me and why this thing fits or doesn't.

00:43:18:16 - 00:43:25:05
Itamar Marani
And I'm also having a fault of mine exposed if need be. That's it.

00:43:25:06 - 00:43:45:21
Alexander De Fina
Yeah. That really brings it together for me is and maybe part of the reason people have trouble making accurate judgment of people is because they're not actually clear on what they want. It's not clear what they want. So they're not clear on discerning who or what behaviors they want in their life.

00:43:45:23 - 00:44:10:19
Itamar Marani
Yet they have no frame in which to judge through. But I also think before that, to be honest, if you look at the theory that we always gravitate towards what's easiest, it's very easy to say, I don't judge and to ride on a high horse. So it is more challenging to say I actually am going to judge. And in order to do that, I'm going to have to clear what I want to make clear my values.

00:44:10:21 - 00:44:24:07
Itamar Marani
I'm going to have to recognize that sometimes that judgment and we actually like analyzing things, is going to expose certain things about myself that aren't great. And I'm going to have to deal with that. I'm going to have to accept that. And I'm going to have to work on that as well.

00:44:24:09 - 00:44:24:22
Alexander De Fina
Yeah.

00:44:25:00 - 00:44:28:04
Itamar Marani
I think that's not as easy as just saying I don't judge.

00:44:28:06 - 00:44:30:00
Alexander De Fina
Yeah.

00:44:30:02 - 00:45:06:16
Itamar Marani
And I think that's the big thing. So I want to kind of wrap a bow on this because I think we got a good place. Yeah, Yeah. And ask the people at home, like first off, where are you uncomfortable to judge because you think it's wrong, okay. And how much clear what you're thinking in priorities B if you gave yourself permission to judge ideas, beliefs and people, if you judge what they do to assess if their actions are effective or ineffective and again, within the frame of you getting what you want out of your life, if you felt comfortable constantly assessing if these examples you see in front of you, these data points are steering

00:45:06:16 - 00:45:27:11
Itamar Marani
people towards the right direction, the effective one for you or the wrong one, how much more powerful would you be? And again, if you could do that without getting emotional and without needing to be mean to anyone, but you could just do that in internal activity without having to externally project anything because of it. How much better would your life be?

00:45:27:13 - 00:45:43:19
Itamar Marani
Because if not, you're just throwing away a lot of valuable that you could be collecting and growing from for the sake of PC nonsense. Yeah. So on the next episode we're going to dive into what Alex was saying, the whole conversation. Like, do you think you're better than other people and why that makes people so cringing, but why?

00:45:43:19 - 00:46:01:20
Itamar Marani
I don't think it should be so. Aside from that, I hope you guys enjoy the episode. If you have different thoughts about this, I would love to hear it. We're going to have an email on the show notes below that you can send an email or comments if it's on YouTube, but here's what I'm going to ask. If you have thoughts on this, please share them.

00:46:01:22 - 00:46:16:08
Itamar Marani
If you have an emotional reaction, that's not as helpful. So if you have a rational framework, could say this is actually too much, you're wrong about this. I would love to hear, or if you have anything you want to add to the conversation we would love to hear. So if you have a rational thought about this, we would love to it. An emotional reaction?

00:46:16:08 - 00:46:21:03
Itamar Marani
People are going to have that, it's part of the game. Okay. 'Till the next one, see you guys next time.