Therapy vs. Coaching and Rory’s Transformation | Elite Performance Podcast #33

Itamar Marani 0:02
Welcome to the Emotional Fortitude podcast how to build the emotional fortitude to win in life and in business, no fluff, just real-world results. I'm your host, Itamar Marani. X is running Special Forces former undercover agent jiu-jitsu black belt and mindset expert.

Dr. Emil 0:22
Hello there guys. Today we are joined by Rory, who was a recent participant of one of Itamar's arenas. And we are going to have a chat with him and find out how the experience was.

Itamar Marani 0:37
Yeah, so guys, Rory, just to give him a quick intro. Rory is the co-founder at counseling tutor. Counseling tutor helps counselors and counseling students with academic resources and online continuing professional development. And he's a trained therapist himself. And he's also the head of trainings, that counselor tutor. Rory was part of one of the recent mindset accelerators actually in the same cohort as a meal. And he had some interesting, the reason we wanted to have him on for two reasons. One, he had some really interesting breaks with himself, which I think can inspire people and can show them what's possible. And to as a therapist himself, he can also give a different kind of explanation than I would as to why these things are possible and how people can achieve them. And for that reason, I'm very excited to have you on so welcome, Roy, thank you for doing this.

Rory Lees-Oakes 1:21
Thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much.

Itamar Marani 1:25
Right, so, Roy, let's just dive into a man who wanted to sign up for the program.

Rory Lees-Oakes 1:32
Yes, I mean, I'm a business owner and our businesses is growing counseling, tutor.com. Is, is growing and scaling very nicely. And one of the things I felt I was I was bit struggling in the business. Maybe I wasn't being as decisive as I should be. I was getting incredibly stressed out. And I thought that instead of going down the usual route, which I do, usually which is going to see my therapist, I thought I would try a coaching approach, and see if that would give me probably more structure than seeing a therapist. And I have to say that I tried coaching before. And I have to say that it was a little bit too wooly. For me, it was a little bit too wooly. It wasn't very structured. The person was lovely, don't get me wrong, the person was lovely. But it wasn't for me. And that kind of put me off a bit. So I decided to take the leap again and join your coaching program. And I found it really transformative in such a short space of time.

Itamar Marani 2:37
So royally mess. That's why was why was the old coaching, what was the issue with it? Why didn't it serve you?

Rory Lees-Oakes 2:43
Well, I think it certainly because I'm not even even though I'm a psychotherapist, I'm not a very fluffy person, I tend to deal in the realities of the world and help my clients grasp the realities of the world, because we live in the world as it is not as the world as we'd want it. And I think that's a very important lesson that, you know, that we could all take away really. And also, the big difference, I think, was that it was a lot more structure in the one that you run. And also, it wasn't one, just one to one, there was a number of people. So it was, it was interesting to see that other business owners or the HMI performing business owners were engaging me much the same issues that I was experiencing. And I think that group of community, that esprit de corps to use a military term, I think was the key thing that kind of that kind of pushed me up to the next level. And, of course, you weren't, you gave some great tools. You know, it wasn't just it wasn't just a friendly chat. There was some tools, there was focus within the teaching, which I was really pleased about being a teacher myself. That was the key thing. The fact that was something to focus on, there was an end goal. So important. In fact, I was reading my stoic philosophy book today. And one of the things that Seneca says is you cannot, without a goal, he can't score. I paraphrase that I don't think that's Seneca hears that, but it's true. As I say, I came away a different person, you know, a very different person, you know, it was it was just transformative.

Itamar Marani 4:25
So let's talk about this right? What was the transformation? If you had to describe it? Could I give the listeners kind of get to you've told them to before they're a bit indecisive and all that. Yeah. What is that after? So we first say that and then we say how we can do how they can get there? Well, I

Rory Lees-Oakes 4:39
think I think the first thing was that, you know, we all stretched out kids and leaving behind our past. And the messages that we got in our past and the fantasies we are creating our past is essential for us to live our own lives, as our own people, not to live them for other people but to live them for ourselves in our On values. One of the things that I identified on this, the archivist was that actually I kind of invested a lot into my late father. And embarrassingly enough, and it was quite embarrassing, but I will share it in that my father died when I was 17. So I had to invent a father, that that I would look up to. And of course, through the arc of this training, I realized that it was my invention. It wasn't him. And the only person I need really to look up to is myself. And that was a pretty groundbreaking moment. And it was a moment within the course where that was highlighted, you highlighted and he was like, Yeah, that's right. And then I was able to kind of just free myself up from that. It was like putting a big bag down.

Itamar Marani 5:46
Yeah, and Roy, for context of the listeners, can you tell them how old you are today? You said at 17 Your father passed? And how long have you been holding on to this?

Rory Lees-Oakes 5:54
The interesting, we should let the listeners Guess how old I am. And then I'll tell them I'm presently 63. And in a couple of months, I'll be 64. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Emil 6:08
Quick question that Rory, you know, you talk about all of us being stretched out kids, and a lot of how we behave and think now is related to our upbringing, right? Yes. Now, this is a key or core concept within therapy as well. And only because we discussed this, Itamar and I yesterday, how did the arena differ from your experience of therapy, given that you're a therapist? Because I've had limited experience of therapy? I've had limited experience of coaching. And there's differences. But I was just wondering, you're more experts opinion?

Rory Lees-Oakes 6:43
Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I think that in therapy, generally therapists engage, well, a lot of therapists engage with where the client says in terms of their perception of things. And I think sometimes with coaching is a little bit more straightforward. It's a case of it's a more directive approach. So in therapy, lots of therapists like myself, put a lot of stock in non direct non direction. In other words, you know, you are who you are, and you'll find your own way. And I think there's value to that. And I think for emotional problems, being able to kind of untangle that in with someone you trust, and being able to find your way is very, very useful. But I do think there is a there's a placing, and this is where coaching comes in, where there's a direct this is what there's almost like a diagnosis. Not as harsh as a diagnosis. But it seems to me, this is the issue, and one that's presented. It's a kind of, really, yeah, I never thought. So that's that I was, I would say a meal. That's the main that's the main difference. Coaching is more directive. And the coach role, by its very nature is more directed. That doesn't mean it's not supportive or empathic, or thoughtful. But it is more directive. That's, that's what I got out of it.

Itamar Marani 8:09
That's me always laughing. I'm curious. Why why is that really? Why was that funny?

Dr. Emil 8:16
Because it was pretty much what we kind of said, said yesterday, but it was like, the way Rory said it, this is the issue, let's sort it out, instead of kind of beating around the bush. And you know, being gently is the wrong word, but being kind of fluffy.

Itamar Marani 8:30
So just being the thing. Yeah. So here's what I want to say to this, I think this is a, it's misunderstood. Who said gentle, it's like, you can absolutely be very, very, very direct, but also extremely caring. Yeah, there has to be gentle, but you can be extremely caring. And I think that's what most people don't recognize that you can't have both. You can't be gentle and fluffy and direct, that doesn't work. But you can have extreme amounts of empathy, and be extremely caring and like do it out of a place of genuinely wanting to help somebody to be extremely direct because of that. Because you recognize that unless you're gonna be extremely direct with him. He might not get these things, and you might not get the result that he wanted the life that he wants. I think that's a big, big misconception.

Dr. Emil 9:13
Yeah, the risk, sorry, gone, gone, or no, please no, go. I was just gonna say the risk with being directors. I mean, potentially, in maybe a less skilled coach would be that the person becomes defensive and shuts off. If you're not. You loving enough, potentially that even even then

Itamar Marani 9:34
that's the thing. That's a skill sensitive. It's showing somebody that you care so much about and that listen, we have to be directly about this because I want you to succeed. And I think usually when people understand that you're genuinely on their side, you want what's best for them. They're very receptive. And that's a skill set to be able to convey that to people.

Rory Lees-Oakes 9:54
I would absolutely agree with that. And I again, I'll pick up on that point. You can become Having any can be direct, but it's that lies within the skill set. And that's what I experienced, you know, within the arena that caring but direct and facing up to it. And the other aspect that I'd like to kind of talk about is that within therapy, there's a great tradition of what's called a re parenting style. So what happens is the therapist becomes a surrogate parent, for the client until they can self regulate themselves. And I don't know if you're aware of this. It's a male, but you did that you didn't replace my father. But actually, the messages that I heard would have were your mum, you need to sort this out. You know, I paraphrase again. And that was really interesting, because I never had that message. And that was a really, that's a really important message. I'm thinking about in having reflected on it. So message I speak, I say to my daughter, this is your issue, how are you going to sort that out? You know, and I think I think it was a lesson that I probably taught my children very well myself, if I'm honest.

Itamar Marani 11:08
Just to be honest, what the main thing I want to do to take away from the whole program, and what I saw from the start, wasn't that because at the beginning, I felt like you thought you need to become more, because you have a business partner, who's also like, very successful as a very clear thinker in some ways. And yes, you're like, Man, I need to become more in order to match up to that. And the reality was that you were already more than enough. You just needed to see yourself for that. Yes. Because that gave you the confidence to be able to, again, assert your opinion over the things where you're you own the professional domain.

Rory Lees-Oakes 11:42
Yeah, absolutely. I know, you know, as I say, the these, you know, lots of lots of the difficulties was having I was working a lot of fantasy ideas, not not the reality, which is, again, why coaching is really useful, because you get brought back to reality. You know, can

Itamar Marani 11:59
you give an example for the listeners? What was a fantasy you were working on? What was the reality?

Rory Lees-Oakes 12:03
Well, I mean, one of the fantasies I had about myself was that maybe I wasn't good enough. And maybe, you know, that in terms of being, you know, business person, I wasn't business enough, whatever that was. And I have no idea what that what that even meant, which I think says a lot. The fact that that means to be more business, see, well, what does that mean, Rory? I've no idea. And through the arc of the training, I realized that every every business owner has anxieties and second guess themselves. That's the nature of being a young person. Don't get it right all the time. But I think the reality is there's that, you know, I am, you know, I'm good enough. More than enough. Bobo Mulder, good enough, yeah, I'm more than good enough. I, you know, and I've taken that away. And it's been a very big change. And I've spent a lot of money on therapy through the years to try and get there. And it was a coaching course, that got me to that place.

Itamar Marani 13:04
So I want to talk about something that you also elaborate a little bit on the calls about, we talked about I call identity lack, that we see ourselves for the person who we were not the person we are today. You had a different term for that. What was that term?

Rory Lees-Oakes 13:20
Um, oh, gosh, well, I'm not quite sure. I mean, sometimes it's it's interjected values and conditions of worth. Was that was that the term?

Itamar Marani 13:28
No, I think it was an R word, something. Reference or a reference frame?

Rory Lees-Oakes 13:33
Oh, yes, thank you. Yes, frame of reference frame of reference, we have a frame of reference. So, you know, our identity is sometimes John, from other people's frames of references, often frames of references we invent, for ourselves, you know, as human beings, we tend to be, we tend to invent things. I mean, there's lots of psychologists who talked about automatic negative thoughts. I mean, that's a big one in cognitive behavioral therapy. And everybody has them. You know, I'd ask your listeners to think when they had a really unacceptable thoughts in their lives. And maybe there's a few people even feeling guilty about that, you know, did you really think that? Well, we all have them, our brain fills up all sorts of nonsense. And it's up to us to manage that and say, Well, you know, that's that's an interesting thought, what I won't be driving over a bush shelter full of people today. You know, it's not what we think it's what we do, isn't it? It's our actions, not our thoughts. And frame of references is how we sometimes view our world. Sometimes. It comes from it comes from the philosophy of phenomenology, our lived experience. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 14:41
Right. To clarify, is that how we view the world or how we view ourselves in relation to the world? Both? Both Okay?

Rory Lees-Oakes 14:49
Both so our frame of reference is not only how we view the world that goes around us, but also our place in the world and who we are in that world.

Itamar Marani 15:00
Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Rory Lees-Oakes 15:02
And part of personal development is about, it's about all ditching who you are not who you were. And that will always link back a lot to childhood messages, a lot of the messages that we have of children we cut, as I said, at the beginning of the piece, we stretched out kids we kept, we still carry the messages that were given in childhood. And they're not valid as we get older. They're not valid at all, or some of them aren't valid.

Itamar Marani 15:30
Yeah, I think we read a little soundbite you have that it's auditing who we are right now, not who we were. Yeah, that is so massive. Yeah.

Rory Lees-Oakes 15:39
Yeah. And, and, you know, we, you know, as we go through our lives, we'll make lots of mistakes, we'll make mistakes, all all parts of our lives. But he's not been defined by that. It's been defined by who we are in our values and understanding our value structure, which was something else that was touched on within the coaching course. Why values, who are you? And it's only when you look to your value, you realize the person you are?

Itamar Marani 16:05
Yeah, it's interesting, because we also didn't talk just about what are your values? And what values do you need to start adopting? Exactly. And honest level, forget about what comes naturally, like in order to become that person you want or to have a life that you want? What values should you adopt? You need to adopt? Yeah,

Rory Lees-Oakes 16:21
yeah, yeah, absolutely. But as I say, it was Chun, it was transformative, and what less anxious. Now I find myself, you know, moving along in the business, developing the business, with with relative ease, I mean, it doesn't mean that there will be challenges or difficulties going forward. But it's how I'll engage with those. It's, it was a wonderful experience, absolutely wonderful. And you meet great people. And you know, that's the whole thing, you meeting other people, and you engaging with them and helping them.

Dr. Emil 16:56
And just to jump in there, I talk about this a lot with any intervention, therapy, coaching, having something tangible, before and after, beyond just this warm glow, when you're kind of during the experience kind of catharsis, like actually having a change afterwards, which maybe you can't measure in centimeters, but you can measure in, I am less anxious. Previously, I was anxious seven times a week now it's three times. That's significant. That's, that's big, that's life changing. I just wanted to highlight that because that's, that's integration. That's like something actually happened here. That's taken you to another level. And you can now see if you did, did that more, or continued peeling off the layers of the onion, life will just get better step by step, Quantum Leap by Quantum Leap, however you want to look at it

Rory Lees-Oakes 17:46
is absolutely male. And that is one of the big differences between therapy, and coaching. In therapy, a lot of therapists don't measure progress. So

Itamar Marani 17:58
I could never do

Dr. Emil 18:01
it. So interestingly enough, I think I mentioned this yesterday, I, I have a therapist, I've had him for about 18 months, and I probably will always have one. And it's very different to coaching as we've discussed, but I kind of was very, very specific. I need progress. I need measurable improvements, I need my life to increase. I don't just want to feel good, and, you know, bathed in this kind of warm glow of chatting to someone. No. We need to do this. And she was super open to it, which is why I stuck with her because she was like, Yes, this is great. Like, and she works with entrepreneurs, and I feel a lot of us are like this. Yeah. So it was just super interesting that you're right. Most Navy don't do this, and most people may be don't want that. You know? Yes. Yeah, I

Rory Lees-Oakes 18:48
think I think that's I think that's a very good point. Some people may just want to tell their story and be heard and the therapists beat bear witness to their lives and certainly many 1000s of hours, I've sat with clients. That's exactly what my role was. It was clear it's a contracted environment. But there is a you know, some some people and I'm amongst those one measurables one milestones that I can say well I did this yesterday but I'm not doing this today. And and I thought you mean to produce that in spades. really did was lots of them.

Itamar Marani 19:25
Rory, correct me if I'm wrong, but they can have very measurable milestone. I remember the beginning you said you had a bit of trust issues. Yes. And you weren't delegating the way you should and your business, you're doing things that you should not be doing? Has that changed? It's getting

Rory Lees-Oakes 19:38
better. I'm not going to lie and say, Oh, yes, no, I just delegate left, right and center. I was working with a lovely colleague yesterday and I was delegating some stuff off. And she said, You never actually say you're doing this but you say to me, so if you can take care of that. That will be great. And I guess that's delegating and I'm volunteering for a lot less The reason I've got Samsung because this podcast is I've stopped saying, I'll do that I'll do this. Yes, I could do that. I'm quite capable of doing it. But I've got colleagues are equally I'm better suited in the seats in the business to be able to do that. And now I just say yes, that's yes. Thank you. You do that? And let me have a look at it. That's fine. So I guess I'm more of a business owner, either.

Itamar Marani 20:25
There is this right. What do you think was the block that got removed that enable you to do that?

Rory Lees-Oakes 20:31
I think I think part of it was feeling that it wasn't on my own. I think the big thing for the experience for me was all the other people being really honest. And I think that I think that speaks to selection, the fact that people were selected because they wanted to change. And, you know, anybody who's a therapist, or a psychologist will say, only those who wants to change or get the benefits, you cannot change someone who doesn't want to change. So the environment, I think, the respectful and loving challenges that came from both the both the people who are participating and yourself. And the fact that I could kind of have something to test them out or do a little kind of experiment or test that out, delegated some work yesterday, the wheel didn't come to an end, it's measurable, the work was done. So that worked. It was little, it was basically a bit of a scientist, it was like, you know, try that that works. Job done, off we go.

Itamar Marani 21:33
Great. Can I put you on the hot seat for a sec? Oh, go on then ask you a tangible question. So from your perspective, I've covered this in a previous episode how to basically conquer identity, like what I what I do for most people with, how would you say if you had to do something very actionable to give people a toolkit, if you have an issue with frame of reference that you still see yourself as someone you shouldn't be seeing yourself and you haven't audited yet, who you are, and you're still kind of working on who you were? What are a couple steps that they can do to really kind of bridge that gap just by themselves even at home right now.

Rory Lees-Oakes 22:07
Okay. The first one is, you know, as entrepreneurs and business owners, we look to the future, we always look into the future because, you know, that's, that's good business practice. Take a breath, stop, turn back, look how far you've come. You know, where you've got where you've got in your journey, be that a personal journey, a business journey? Is the work you've done, and own it. You know, you know, somebody said to me, don't know why you dismiss yourself, look at what you've done. You know, I've got you can't see this probably on the radiology podcast, but I've got to teach in the world, there was only 35 people in the whole UK won that. And I was one of them. 35,000 people applied, and 35 of us will play till Teaching Award for Outstanding use of technology in education. And sometimes it's about just acknowledging that, and kind of saying, that's who I am, I've done that, that I've earned. I've earned my dues. I've done my I've done my bit. And that's who I am. And I'm taking who I am, which is enough and moving forward. And the other thing is you good enough? Just a very simple thing. You are good enough. If you've not got to the answer yet, probably you're not asking the right questions.

Itamar Marani 23:23
What do you mean by that? If you haven't gotten to the answer, you're not asking the right question?

Rory Lees-Oakes 23:26
Well, I would say I would say that if you're saying well, I can't delegate, in my case. What questions should I be asking? Is it because people aren't taking any notice Ami? In my case, it was because I didn't trust people. And the question, the question was, where does this idea come from? And it came from my past, it had nothing to do with my hearing now, nothing to do at all, with the hearing now, I was carrying things from a child. And you know, from a brain perspective, the part of our brain that carries those kinds of fears doesn't have a clock or a chronometer. You know, it's not linear. So sometimes we have these ideas, but they're not relevant in the here and now check your thinking out, you know, how I'm feeling relevant now? Or am I feeling like I was when I was a child? And if I feel like it was a child, then you have to say to yourself, actually, I'm not seven. I'm 63. Soon to be 64.

Itamar Marani 24:27
It's very interesting that you use that term. Am I feeling like a child right now? Yes. What do you mean by that? Is it that suddenly you feel a bit like you're not you feel lack of confidence, or what do you mean by that?

Rory Lees-Oakes 24:40
Because, well, in my case, the lack of just kind of was kind of a fear based activity, where there will be huge consequences for trusting someone and that kind of generated stress and anxiety. And sometimes it's really be a case of not letting your feelings overtake the reality. You know, we think and feel for two different reasons. And feeling is great. You know, I love I love the feeling of holding my granddaughter. That's a great feeling and my grandson. However, it's, it's, it's a feeling in perspective, it's not, it's not great to go through life being managed purely by your feelings. Because our feelings are by nature, kind of transitory and irrational. So, sometimes we have to say, this is how I feel. And this is how I think I'll give you an example of that. I bought myself a jeep. I bought myself a jeep. And what I had to do was I had to sit and say, What do I feel? And what do I think, and I think he's gonna cost me a fortune to run. Yeah. And I think I think I probably won't be able to park it. And I think that it's probably going to cost me a lot to maintain. However, I've always wanted one. So I'll let my feelings in that case, override me. But if it becomes too expensive, I'll sell it. That's where my thoughts will take over. And I think sometimes it's balancing your thoughts and your feelings, we'd need both to live a valuable and honorable life.

Itamar Marani 26:14
Yeah, very well said. Me, I'd love to hear it from your perspective, to kind of recap what Rory was saying about the stages about what to do with this.

Dr. Emil 26:23
So the biggest thing that I kind of got from there was that that auditing thing that that auditing of self, because that seems to, I don't want to say solve all the problems, but it's the first pebble in an avalanche, which solves all the problems is just stopping for a moment, and being like, where, who am I now? What have I achieved? Where are these ideas coming from? It almost doesn't matter where they're coming from just the fact that they're not coming from now, is the most important thing. And then, what's the truth? Now? I mean, there's modules in the in the arena, in the mindset accelerator, which do specifically this. It's not called a self audit, but it's exactly that.

Itamar Marani 27:05
It is. It's I don't know, if it is we talked about the four levels of self awareness there. That's exactly that. And I think a really, really big thing is, I asked sometimes I don't know if you guys remember this, I asked one of the guys in your group. He said that this is a belief that he holds he thinks this is not. And I asked him, Where did you learn that to be true? And he was stumped. He was like, wait, I never thought I've got to actually learn this. Somehow. I thought this was just a given. And just asking sometimes that kind of question like, where did you learn this to be true? Like, who taught you this? What situation life showed you that this is how the world is having to actually think about those things? It makes us pause, have a second say, Wait, is this actually what's? What's the reality today? Or is this the reality that was for the person I was back then?

Dr. Emil 27:52
Yeah, and it all works within the structure. Because, you know, just stopping and auditing yourself is almost moot unless you have something that you're trying to achieve a direction and mission statement points. Because then there's context for it. It's like, what thoughts and actions are holding me back? Okay, where do they come from? Okay. Are they true in the moments because now they have a frame of reference? Now. So it's as if you've thought about this before, it all works really, really well together?

Itamar Marani 28:21
So there's a there's an arc as to this.

Rory Lees-Oakes 28:24
Yeah, so it's an arc. It's an arc of personal development, and it's a journey we're all on. And from the minute we born, so the minute we we die, you know, about how we engage with the world. And and it's, and it's, you know, inequalities is a, there's a great book by a guy called M. Scott Peck called the road less traveled. It's, it starts off by saying life isn't fair get used to it. And once you've realized that life isn't fair, you've got one thing less to worry about life and not being fair. And I used to call that a lot when I saw and it was amazing how many people thought that was really harsh, but, you know, sometimes the, you know, the, the inequalities of the world, we have to meet, and we have to work out how we're going to work around them and work through them. You know, I think, I think on the arc of personal development that happens.

Itamar Marani 29:16
It's interesting, right? Because I hear you say that some people think it's really harsh. When I first learned this, I felt a sense of freedom. Yes, it gave me a sense of liberty to actually be able to take power again. Yeah, before that, I was looking for things to be fair. And when things weren't fair, I felt like something was against me. And I was powerless because things are supposed to be fair. So there's, there's a problem the world right now. All of a sudden, when like, someone explained to me like life isn't fair. I was like, oh, okay, that I can keep moving and figure this out. Even if I don't get the result that I want. And I'm not supposed to get it always because that's a slight and obviously only gave me a sense of that I can actually take ownership of my success. And I just depend on things being quote unquote fair. Yeah.

Rory Lees-Oakes 29:56
And that's definitely been the that's the difference between being three And 33 When you three, your parents, you know, try to make life as fair and stress free as possible. When you get older, you know, you engage with the world as it is. And that's part of being an adult. That's the difference between being an adult and a child. And good parents, I think, helped help children, you know, grasp the, you know, the inequalities in the world early on, so that they don't get to 33. And ask that question, why should Why is life not fair? You know,

Itamar Marani 30:30
do a meal, before we kind of sign off? Is there anything you want to question? Anything you want to ask any question you want to add to the mix?

Dr. Emil 30:38
Just one thing I want to throw into this, because it is important for the kind of greater context is the cyclical, ongoing nature of this process, the layers of the onion, the, you know, what, however, we want to call this because you go around this once this self audit, and the top layer comes off, and then things change, you're not suddenly healed, fixed, enlightened, woke, you know, it's not suddenly problem solved, tick a box, you then go again, new things emerge, you go again, and you go again, and this is an ongoing process that I mean, theoretically, never ends. So yeah, just to highlight that, because, you know, even as kind of Rory was saying, with the delegation, like, the first Pebble is there, the avalanche is starting, and then that may be uncouple, uncover something else, and then we'll go around again, and we'll go around again. So just to give some kind of greater perspective for, for this process in general. Yeah.

Rory Lees-Oakes 31:33
Yes, absolutely. To when you when you have when you've done something, when you made a step change in your life to repeat it, and make a note, a mental note, you can write it down, what happened? What was the consequence? And the more you do it, the more it becomes a natural progression is a natural thing for you. And then you can move on to the next thing, but you're absolutely right, you know, the journey of 1000 miles starts with the first footstep.

Itamar Marani 31:57
Yeah, it's interesting, I kind of view it in a different way. I view it as that you learn the skill, but then you have to learn to apply it every time at a higher degree of difficulty. So for example, like delegation first was just one person and something that you know, is very low, like they can do it, it's automated pretty much. Next time was actually having more trust in somebody, and suddenly, you're not actually sure what to delegate, we tell them I have a problem. And we keep ascending in these degrees of difficulty with this one thing we're unlocking that sort of experience myself, for example,

Dr. Emil 32:27
it's greater degrees of difficulty in absolute terms, but relatively it's just another step. Yes. Yes. So yeah, I mean, for sure. It's bigger and bigger things. But you're equipped to that level, and you're always just leaning into your edge, you're pushing the next boundary, you're not going to go from zero to running an organization of 1000 people overnight, but the first thing is going to be to ask someone to do something, and then go from there.

Rory Lees-Oakes 32:55
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think the the motto that I'd take away from you midsommar was, you know, you were saying in your in your training, when you're in the military, they said, you know, run as fast as you can, and then run faster, which started as

Itamar Marani 33:10
fast as you can gradually increase your speed.

Rory Lees-Oakes 33:14
I think that's very true. Because with that becomes discomfort. And it's only in the when we feel discomfort is where real growth happens. No one gets growth, I don't think where they're feeling comfortable. It's only when you're feeling uncomfortable, be your athlete, or be your business, someone that I'll be anything in life, solely when there's a degree of difficulty where you can actually say to some growth, growth happening.

Itamar Marani 33:39
Well said, very, is there anything else you want to say before always for today?

Rory Lees-Oakes 33:43
Well, no, I mean, thank you very much for inviting me on the podcast I've enjoyed, I've enjoyed my time, I'd highly recommend the arena. It was transformative for me, you meet wonderful people, as evidenced by the two guys I'm talking to, on the podcast. And I'm forever forever grateful that I've engaged with it. So thank you very much.

Itamar Marani 34:06
Appreciate that. Alright, I want to say something to the listeners here. This my main goal, from this episode, as Rory is to showcase an example that you don't always need more. A lot of times, we think we want more success or better success in our business or whatever it may be. And we feel like we have to do more. Glory is a phenomenal example of somebody who's built a very impressive business, who's an award winning teacher who's done a lot of great things in his life. And he's an example that we don't always need more. We just need to step up into who we are. It's about realizing that we're more than we think. And I think Rory also shared some really tangible tools and how you can do that as a frame of reference, which I really appreciate Rory, and honestly, for a lot of you guys out there. Before you think of adding more, ask yourself, am I just not acting in line with myself? Because I might be more I might be more than enough to tackle the next challenges that I have on my plate. anything else? Let me know. Should we wrap it up that?

Dr. Emil 35:05
Let's wrap it at that. That's a. That's a Mic drop.

Itamar Marani 35:09
Awesome. Thank you very much, guys. We will see you on the next episode. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the emotional fortitude podcast. Please tell a friend if you enjoyed it and found value in it. Three last things before you go though. If you feel like someone else with your exact skill set and abilities could be accomplishing more than you currently are. That's a mindset and emotional access issue. And here are three ways I'd love to help you conquer any internal limitations go big and win one three quick ideas Tuesday newsletter, it's a weekly email with three quick ideas around one aspect of elite performance and how to approach it differently to get better and faster results. People say it's the most thought provoking and impactful two minutes they spend in their inbox each week. It's easy to sign up to and easy to cancel and you can sign up at either mom ryan.com/three ideas. Two is the emotional fortitude micro course. It will help you build the emotional fortitude and conflict tackle any goal it's the complete nothing held back emotional fortitude system and five simple parts. It's all under five minutes each module, see it, use it and win. And it's completely free at Itamar marani.com/course. And number three Lastly, if you want to dive in and aggressively level up the Reno mindset accelerate might be for you. It's a six week intense sprint for entrepreneurs who are up for dramatic transformation. It's an interactive live program where we'll be working with me in a very hands on way to get clarity on what you want. Build an effective mindset to optimize for your goals and establish elite emotional fortitude that will allow you to overcome any fear or doubt that could get in your way. You can learn more at Itamar marani.com/accelerate. You can find all of these links in the show notes below or go to Itamar marani.com and have a look around. Until next time, Who Dares Wins