The Point of Power with Andre Lugo | Elite Performance Podcast #29

Itamar Marani 0:00
You have the opportunity to act with courage and do things that you really be proud of. So you know what? I know this is this is a false belief that's trying to pull me in the wrong direction. And no, it doesn't feel comfortable, but I know what actually effective action is. So I'm going to choose, I'm going to decide to employ courage. Welcome to today's episode, everybody. So today, we're doing something a little bit different, something a little bit special. So I'm here with Andre Lugo Andreea reached out to me after listening to a couple of the podcasts with a certain email, and it was very interesting. So basically, he said, This is what I think your system is, am I getting this correctly. And it was a very interesting email. And instead of me wanting to break it down for him in the email, I thought this could be an amazing opportunity to bring someone on the pod have him ask it from a listener viewpoint. And also he's an expert himself in a lot of behavioral changes, theory of constraints. And I thought it'd be interesting on the pod. So, Andre, first off, welcome. And can you please introduce yourself to the good people out there?

Andre Lugo 0:50
Excellent. So I'm trying to go, I'm a management consultant, here in the United States, and I travel for work I've been I've been a consultant for 18 years. And we do on site, process improvement, behavioral change, coach, teach and train clients how to improve their environment. And a lot of what we coach teach and train aligns with a lot of what you present in your program. So I thought it was interesting to reach out to you and share some of my perspective on what I saw from what you were saying.

Itamar Marani 1:25
Yeah, it was very impressive how you're sharing it, the flow, how you wrote everything so clear. And it was so it was just so clear and precise. So again, I appreciate you doing this. And what I wanted to do is let's just dive in, because you asked, basically, am I getting this correctly. So I'd love for you to share basically, this is, from your perspective, this is what I think step number one is step number two, and three, and we can kind of work it back from there. Because the people who don't have your kind of background can break it down for themselves. This will give them a lot of info and a lot of very useful guide. So please go ahead. Well,

Andre Lugo 1:55
my honest belief is that people connect with understanding step one, step two, step three, almost like a recipe, right? So a lot of times if you can break things down into a flow chart, or mod or module model, and be able to see that so clearly, the first step of that was anchoring it to what do I really want to do? What do I want for myself? And what one would I be proud of? But number two, what's the way to get there? You know, exploring that, what would I be happy with? If I achieve this? Right was one of the things that I heard you clearly say, and so the next step was, alright, so if I want X, what values represent x? And what am I prepared to do and not to achieve that?

Itamar Marani 2:45
I want to pause and jump in. So to kind of break it down, even just clear for everybody listening out there. So what he's saying is, step number one is getting clear on what you want. And what will make you really happy in life. And beyond that, what I think perhaps we haven't clarified in the podcast enough, we also put in guardrails. So what I've noticed specially with these hyper ambition kind of individuals, I'm one of them, we all have these kind of eight types are, is that if you just ask someone what they want, they might forget about other important things along the way. And it's really important to have these guardrails of what do you not want to regret as well, as even if you build a giant business that you're super proud of, but you neglected your family life, or whatever it may be things that are important. You're gonna look back and regret. So it's getting clear on what you want, but also getting clear on what you don't want to regret, then you have a more true north, so to speak.

Andre Lugo 3:34
Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. And I think that knowing what you want do is very critical, because it helps you like you said put guardrails on. And then the second step is, what values would those be? You know, what would my future self be proud of that I did today? So what are those values, I want to achieve that connect to number one. And then defining actions in number 3/3 step is defining those actions that align with those values. So if my goal was to be persistent, or to have courage, what three things can I do daily to demonstrate courage in my job or in what I'm trying to achieve? And then the fourth step is Okay, so now that I am going to take these steps, and as I start doing them, what kind of fears will I experience when it gets tough? Because I love the example you gave about the seesaw with the motivation, desire and the load on the other side. And that is so true, because once the pressure of the motivation goes away, that load starts to build back up and then we don't understand what's causing the roadblock and exploring those fears and insecurities and self limiting beliefs helps us to be able to identify that and I actually share it so With that with some, some clients at work, and it, it resonated with them, I gave a presentation on a project that we're actually working on now, with some of that, and everyone in the rooms a lot faces lit up, like oh my gosh, this is so true. And then the last part of it is, you know, developing those mental models that helped you to do that with the if then because statement that you talked about. So if, if I resonate with Shaquille O'Neal, for example, in sports, you know, what would Shaquille O'Neal do in this situation? If he were faced with this, right? Would he take that final shot at the end of the game? And although like you said, I might experience the fear. But I, but it's just an emotion, and it's there. And it's real. But I need to make sure that I can overcome that. Right. And then finally, the last fun step is freeing that kind of tracking sheet of those actions, and grading yourself each week on how well you achieve those one to 10. And then being able to use it as a feedback loop. To go back to number one, are these actions actually helping me to achieve what I want?

Itamar Marani 6:10
Yeah, that's great. So there's a couple First off, it's, it's really impressive, you're able to pick it up. And I'm very happy to hear it's already serving other people as well beyond what I'm doing. That's awesome. I'm happy here to help your clients. So the things I would add there are as follows. So like I said, the first step is getting clear on what you want, and making sure that you don't regret things as well. Number two is reverse engineering. What would somebody who is going to achieve this value in life? Not just what am I connected to? What are my top values? But what would somebody who does this actually would live this? What would they value? And then how you said this very clearly, what are the three rules for each value? That can actually make me do it live that value, so to speak. Now what we do with the tracker is as soon as that happens, we start tracking those actions. That's the first thing, we started really putting those actions into the tracker. Now we're going to say, Okay, you're gonna start experiencing, you're gonna actually try doing these things. Now you're gonna get some friction, because like I said, that's when the seesaw comes in, and that human factor arises. And all of a sudden, things pop up. Oh, I am, I know, this is the right thing I should be doing. But for some, some reason I'm not doing it. I feel weird, it feels off. And that's when we start flushing out people's subconscious. And you use the term limiting beliefs. And no, it's a very popular one. It's one that I really tried to avoid. And I'll say why I think whenever we ask someone, what do you think your limiting beliefs are? We're denying ourselves the ability to find blind spots? Because we're asking what do you already are aware of that is limiting you. And because of that, we might not actually know what's actually going on, instead of that, what we just do on a general level. So let's flush out your subconscious. Let's see some of your belief structures around this subject, period. Because we might find something very interesting. And what I've noticed is that when we just go from that kind of perspective, Let's not ask what you know, your limiting beliefs are, but let's just flush things out. Sometimes, once something gets discovered it all of a sudden loses its impact. Wow, I had this belief. This is how I view the world. That's ridiculous. And I can see that I never was aware of it, though. So that's that phase a bit more clear. Does that make sense?

Andre Lugo 8:18
Oh, absolutely. It does. And I think trying to uncover that is probably incredibly impactful. Because a lot of times like you said, I may or may not be aware that I have impostor syndrome, right? I might think that I'm confident I go into meetings and I, you know, I'm presenting or I'm talking or I'm engaging. But again, I may not realize that what may be, that might be something that I need to explore, because maybe I shut down when a certain element that that occurs. And I don't realize that it's being driven by that imposter syndrome.

Itamar Marani 9:00
Yeah. So the way I came up with this system was a lot through just trial and error, like working with a lot of people and seeing what works. And the way I figured this part out was that I had one client, they, they were sitting on a goldmine in their business, but for some reason, they were afraid to promote it. And I was okay, like, why are you You know, the things you should be doing? And we figured out the concrete actions, we verify this was believable parties that this is the right thing. So why aren't you doing it? And when we really dug in, they have this belief that they figured, oh, if I make a lot of money, that means I'm greedy. Why? Because where they grew up, they looked at rich people as people that are bad, or greedy, or not kind. And they were not even aware that was playing in the back of their head. And that's when I recognize and I you said at the beginning of that part of your background is behavioral change and theory of constraints. And I recognize, wow, these beliefs are sometimes people's actual constraints. This the thing to focus on, and it's usually the ones that they're not aware of that are really kicking them in That's because the ones that they're aware of, they can kind of try to sidestep them. But wherever you're just getting blindsided by them, they completely take you off track.

Andre Lugo 10:10
Now that you again, I, when I first encountered your, your podcasts, and I was listening, everything you said resonated with me, because I see it clearly with the clients that I work with. And the unfortunate thing is, sometimes when we help install and help make a change, it doesn't sustain itself. And that's the key thing, I think, you provide, in your model, a way to sustain and, and you'll own it forever, as opposed to, okay, I accomplished a goal yay for me, and then all of a sudden, you no longer are motivated, just like losing weight. And so I think this gives it a way to perpetuate itself. And part of the evaluation process, is it achieving number one? And if it's helping me achieve number one, then then it's, it's good if it's not then exploring some more, because maybe there's something else that's causing an issue as well.

Itamar Marani 11:08
Yeah, it's interesting. So we're gonna kind of go forward to go backwards. But it's an as you were saying about number one, what I've noticed a lot of times people, it's kind of a cycle, people get clear on what they want, what they need to do in order to get there and really flush out the main things that are holding them back internally from doing it. And then all of a sudden, they feel a lot more free. So they're like, You know what, I actually want something much bigger. I just didn't recognize that before. But I feel much more free to actually look further ahead now. And their ambition rises. And often they have to go through that loop. Again, it's kind of a closed loop. But it's not just like an upward spiral where you keep going up and up and up and up. But I kind of want to go back to what we were saying about sorry, go ahead.

Andre Lugo 11:45
No, no, I was just gonna say that that's true. And helping people to identify that sometimes takes several several verses of that song before you get there.

Itamar Marani 11:57
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So one more thing I want to say that's really big about the beliefs is I try to not, again, avoid that I try to avoid the term limiting beliefs, positive beliefs, and all that kind of jazz. Because what I've noticed is, the people that I usually deal with, they're very logic driven. They're not emotion driven. They're like, I just want to implement logic, as soon as my emotions get in the way. And if I have a very hard charging entrepreneur, and in the moment, they're getting very stressed out about something, because I believe that what I'm going to do is going to make me a greedy person, they're not going to stop and say to themselves, well, this is a negative belief, what's a more positive belief I can hold? That usually doesn't work for them. But what does work is if they can say, You know what I know that thing I believe is not true. And because I'm a realist, if it's not true, I'm willing to do it, even though it feels uncomfortable, because I know it's not true. So when we flush out their false beliefs, what we do afterwards, their beliefs, period, we go through a process of falsifying them. Like, if you're going to make more money is that actually mean? You're going to be a greedy person who's a bad human being. Because once we take, we flush out their subconscious, we find their blind spot. And then instead of just saying, Okay, this is a blind spot, let's call this a negative belief. And let's adopt a positive belief for all that you can go with, instead of that we say, Is this actually true or not? Because once they recognize, man, this isn't actually true, then they give themselves permission to let go of it, even though it feels very uncomfortable. And that's a very insightful key step in it. Good.

Andre Lugo 13:32
No, no, that's very insightful because negating it, I think, is the is the key element, right? Because like you said, ultimately, you're going to, you're going to change it, but you want to make sure that it doesn't have the possibility of resurrecting. And when you negate it, you've totally taken it off the table. And I think that's a key a key factor in getting to the to the ultimate goal, right?

Itamar Marani 13:58
Yeah, so I think as far as negating it, that's a pretty strong word. But I say you have the ability to mitigate it. So I think in the most from what I've seen, in the moment, let's say you're in a bit of a high stress situation, one of your old beliefs is still going to pop up because you're stressed and you revert back to your defaults. It's kind of like when an athlete is very tired towards the end of the game, and they just fall back on muscle memory. Call it mindset, muscle memory, it's the same thing. But if you're aware that, oh, I'm about to fall into this pattern that I shouldn't, because I know this isn't true, and it actually doesn't serve me. And I also do know what actually is true. Then you give yourself the opportunity of choice, the power of choice, when instead of just being a victim to your beliefs, you can say, You know what, I know this isn't true. And I know this would be convenient for me to react this way, because this is how I used to believe things are, but I know it's not true. And I know what actually is true. So therefore, I get to choose to be courageous to something that doesn't feel natural, but I know is the correct thing and take that action. I think that's the really crucial part about it. Is giving people that power of choice to not just be victims to their old beliefs.

Andre Lugo 15:04
I think again, that's so right on because I think when you take those actions, and like you said, in previous podcasts, you know, doing it, because you know, it's the right thing to do, even though it does feels uncomfortable, you're going to, and I loved early on one of your very first podcasts that I listened to, you talked about when you were in the competitions, and you win at a certain level, because you understood you were that good. But then when you got to the second level, you know, you free to take the shot at the end of the game, so to speak, and and it caused you some some pain. And so overcoming that pain by making sure that you Yes, I get it. But I'm going to keep moving on, because this is the right thing for me to do. And making a conscious choice, I think is is critical in this process.

Itamar Marani 15:59
Yeah. So I've actually got to develop a deeper understanding of what happened there. So I'll share it basically. So there's a concept. Have you ever heard under the performance pressure bell curve? Yes. Yeah, so what I recognized is that, because I was attaching so much meaning to the actions I was taking, it was moving me towards the wrong part of that performance pressure book, or I was putting too much pressure on myself. And my performance really dipped. Because I had the belief that I wasn't aware of it was a complete blind spot, that unless I win this, I'm not a tough guy, I'm not validated, I'm still going to be that soft guy who quit back in the day. And for me, that's why I think understanding these blind spots is so important, because if you would have asked Itamar of when was 2012, what's going on in your head? I've been like, I don't know, I was trying to when I wouldn't have been able to know if any of my self limiting beliefs. But if I would have had somebody sent me down back, let's flush out what's going on in your head right now. Talk about how do you think about the situation? What are your concerns? What are your doubts, whatever it may be, that might have come up. And if that have come up, and someone would have pulled that out of me, then it wouldn't have held power over me anymore, I could have performed my best and achieve what I wanted to. And that's my thought goes together.

Andre Lugo 17:16
Absolutely. And that's why I think a lot of times coaching is critical, because it's an independent voice that sits down with you and says, Okay, let's explore this. Because some people, like I said, you could walk through the model and go, Okay, I get this, you know, I'm good. You know, here's my limiting belief. Yes, yes, I need to change it. But but then there may be a blind spot, like you said that that needs to be explored that if you don't have someone as an independent voice that asks you the question, you might not get there. I think in one of the other podcasts, you talked about a person who had, you know, tried to do certain things, and then they weren't able to articulate it. And then they couldn't understand why they couldn't get there. And then, as you said, you explored it and then all of a sudden, it clicked. And they saw that that was the issue driving their behavior.

Itamar Marani 18:15
Yeah, yeah, it's a fast everyone. So to kind of recap where we are so far, first part is clarity. Then second part is the values. Third part is is setting rules for them. Forest part is flushing out your subconscious, not asking what are my limiting beliefs? Just figure out what are your belief structures, then after that, falsify them? And the way I like to falsify them is we're just asking, first off, where did you learn this from? Why do you think this is how the world works? And just sometimes that question removes a lot of the actual weight that beliefs hold. It's like, oh, I just had a kid when I was in third grade. He told me that people who make a lot of money, greed and bad people. So right now, I'm looking at the world through the eyes of a third grader. And we asked, like, what's the context? Where did you learn this from? Who did you learn this from? And is it actually true? And sometimes people still get stuck. So we asked, would this actually be true for somebody else's? Well, not just for you? But is this just a general truth? For example, gravity is true for everybody. But if something is just true for you, then it might not actually be the truth. It's just a belief you hope that's causing all this fear and this anxiety? So I want to ask, like, where do you see this with your clients who said you just you talk to them about this. I'm curious to hear how you've seen this interact with people knowing what they shouldn't be doing, but you're not actually doing it.

Andre Lugo 19:39
So again, I just wrote a note down of falsifying beliefs, because that, that I think that's a key point that needs to be brought out. What I find with my clients is that if we ask them to execute on something, they may look at it as if it's something in In addition to what they have to do, it's a tool or it's a checklist or it's some type of external thing. And then the internal monologue is along the lines of why do I have to do this? I already do this every day, I know this. But then when you speak to them and talk to them about what would what would you be proud of? If you did this, right? What would your future self be proud of, like you've said in some of the podcasts, be proud of if you executed on this, and then exploring why there's a why there's a resistance to executing on this tool that's there to help them analyze work or to you know, make sure if certain things get done, that they aren't getting done. And, and I think that the model helps to be able to try to explore that, because again, at the end of the day, we're looking to achieve sustainability.

Itamar Marani 20:53
Yep, that's very well said. And I think, for me, my perspective on sustainability is that it comes from having to actually exert less effort on a consistent basis. That's the whole seesaw, he said about motivation and desire and friction. It's just if you have if you need to actually exert less effort, because you're not facing as much internal resistance because you don't have these blind spots that are wrecking havoc in your subconscious, then it becomes more sustainable. And I think that's why that's such a key component in the program. And once we falsify these things, and recognize, oh, a lot of your beliefs, these things that were causing all this resistance is fear, anxiety, the sense of overwhelm, whatever it may be, there's pressure, once you recognize you're not true, and you can actually have the toolkit and how to catch them, when they pop up. That's when you can really start flying. Now, again, it's, it's not that you completely negate them. And I think it's really important to say, because you don't negate them. But again, you get yourself the opportunity of choice. And you get the opportunity to catch things when they're just a tiny little flare up. And just being a little pinch of emotion. Like, ah, I recognize what's going on here is because of this belief, and you can logically walk yourself through the process, so you can make the right choice. Again, like you have to have the power to make it, you have to decide you want to make it. And that's where the whole toolkit of the program is to give people that power.

Andre Lugo 22:14
And I think, particularly like you described with the arena, I'm sure a lot of that kind of exploring takes place, that a one on one coach can help you to uncover as opposed to trying to figure it out on your own, and fumbling constantly, and not really getting to the heart of what could be that belief that you need to falsify.

Itamar Marani 22:41
Yeah, yeah, I think it's for the best example, I've heard about this, when I had a coach in jujitsu was a black belt. And I asked him about hidden how he gets coached and all that he's like, Man, I can't right now, I don't have the time that it up. But it's like, but if I was competing, for example, and I'm in it, I would love to have an actual purple belt version of myself coaching me, because even a lesser version of myself is able to help me because he's not in it. And that was a very interesting insight. And I agree with you. So I want to ask, Do you have any questions about how to falsify these things? And then I can actually help you give you a toolkit to arm for your clients?

Andre Lugo 23:23
That's a great question. And so when you falsify beliefs, what are some of the do you take people through a battery of questions that helps them to write it down? Because I've, I went through the mini course you have, which I thought was awesome. And I love some of the questions that were in the mini course. And I think that, that gets you started. But does it get you to the heart, or the meat of what happens with that?

Itamar Marani 23:55
That's great. So let's talk about getting to the heart of it. So how are we talking about the theory of constraints? I'm a fan of it as well. And so the what the reason we do things in a sequential order by first getting clear on what you want, and then what are the things you need to do is because then after we flushed out all your beliefs, like you said, there's in the micro courses, all those structures, we can then ask, what are probably the three biggest inhibitors of you taking these actions. For example, if you didn't have this belief, go back to that exam, just because you've used it of making a lot of money means you're greedy, would you be able to actually launch this product and market it much more? You'd be more free to do that? Would a clone of you who doesn't have these three beliefs? Would they be a lot more successful? And once you nail in what are people's three main things, that's usually the 8020 of it. And that's getting to the heart of it. Because it's not about flushing out everything and falsifying everything, like people don't have time for that. And it's not a necessity for either. But if you can figure out what are the three main beliefs that are actually holding you back, then let's try to falsify those because if you falsify those and recognize those aren't true Then we're pretty much fighting a downhill battle from there. And, again, it's pretty simple once you get to them, and you can actually logically flush them out and see them in front of you on a piece of paper on a computer screen. It's amazing the power they lose. It's kind of like in the horror movies, you know, when they only show the monster halfway through the movie, and but then anticipation of not seeing it, that's what really causes havoc. It's the same thing once they're not an invisible wall anymore. But you're clear on what these beliefs actually are that if I make more money than I'm greedy, or if I speak out in public and voice my opinion, then people will think negatively of me, you flush these things out, they lose half the power become visible. Then the important thing is, why do I think this is true? Where did I learn this? Who taught me this? What situation showed me this? When when I learned this, for example, the whole speaking out a lot of people are afraid to to public speaking. Why? Because then I recognize when I was in first grade during show and tell I showed something and all other kids laughed at me. And since then, I've had this fear of public speaking because I equate that if I speak in public, bad things will happen to me. And then you can recognize Wait, is this still something that I should follow? This happened in first grade? Is this still true for me today? For who I am with my current skill sets, my current abilities, my current position in life and the kinds of people who I'm speaking with? And if people are still stuck there? Because he can't say it and have no, I still feel insecure? We just ask Is this true for everyone? should everyone be afraid of public speaking? Or not? Because if you can recognize that, okay, this isn't true that I should always just be afraid of public speaking, who's going to harm me. Then again, you give yourself that power of choice, where you can employ courage and say, I know this isn't true. So all right, still feels uncomfortable. But another correct thing for me the one that the more helpful thing, the more effective thing for me to do is actually speak and give myself an opportunity to be heard. So therefore, I need to do it.

Andre Lugo 27:00
So Itamar, if I understood you correctly, in order to falsify beliefs, we kind of want to look at the biggest three examples of what they believe are their biggest fears. And then, the second thing is, why do I still

Itamar Marani 27:15
sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna button because this is really important. So it's not about the three biggest fears in general. It's about what three main beliefs could be holding them back from pre natal specific actions that we figured out that it No, but beyond that, not just their three main beliefs in general, but the main beliefs that are stopping them from taking this specific actions that we figured out they need to take now. The rules?

Andre Lugo 27:39
Yeah, so that leaves

Itamar Marani 27:41
because that leaves

Andre Lugo 27:42
are tied to the action. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 27:45
Yeah, cuz at the end of the day, this is all about actions, like what I care about is, again, this is very different than therapy. We're just healing general things. It's about how can we get you to take more action? So we figure out these are specific actions you need to take. So what's blocking you from doing those things?

Andre Lugo 28:00
Because those are the tangible actions, tangible actions. So then it's and then why do I? Why do I still hold on to these beliefs? are they true? I'm sorry, are they true? And then is this still true for everyone? And then from there, it gives you a point of clarity. And then that's where you're prepared to address it?

Itamar Marani 28:22
Yep, it's where you're, you're unprepared to address and you have the ability to recognize this isn't true. And you have the ability to decide, do I want to keep going along with this belief? Or do I want to do what would actually serve? And I think a big part of it is recognizing that it's still going to feel uncomfortable. That's really important. I think when people tell themselves, okay, this is behind me have negated it, it doesn't matter anymore. It's not going to affect me. That's when they get blindsided. Because it still is going to affect you. It's what you naturally do. It's how you naturally think. But again, you're trying to grow trying to change and evolve. So it's really important to accept that, okay, when I'm about to do this big thing, for example, I'm about to go do a public speaking gig. I recognize that I'm still going to feel uncomfortable. But when I start feeling a certain way, I start recognizing that I'm getting nervous or anxious. And I started going into my head about it, and says, There's no way we wait. I'm getting nervous, because I have this belief, because of what happened in the first grade. And I know it's not relevant for today. So when I recognize them, they're gonna feel nervous. There's nothing really for me to feel nervous about. So I don't need to backtrack. But I need to go ahead and do what I need to do.

Andre Lugo 29:36
No, I get I see what you're saying. And you've given me enough fodder to go modify the model a little bit more to add some of these elements to it. So that it's a paint by numbers so to speak. But I'm sure you know that that's where the probably the crux of of getting through it is is in that is in that looking at those three beliefs that are holding you back from taking the action You need to so that, you know, do you still believe that they're true and I now have power to, to address it and take some corrective action or progressive action? Or, or not. And but hopefully, you know, you've given people such a freedom to be able to make that next choice. It's sort of prescriptive, that you can take that next choice. And it's not, it's not going to be as scary as you think, like you said, but the monster at the end of the movie, right?

Itamar Marani 30:31
Yeah, so I'll say that's a big thing. I tell people we talked about do things that your future self will be proud of. We give everybody the the ability to act with courage and do the right thing. They're not always going to feel confident, because they're still going to have that background of that belief. You've held it for 40 years, 30 years, whatever it may be, it's going to be there, it's going to feel uncomfortable. But you had the opportunity to act with courage and do things that you really be proud of, say, you know, what I know this is, this is a false belief that's trying to pull me in the wrong direction. And no, it doesn't feel comfortable, but I know what actually effective action is. So I'm going to choose, I'm going to decide to employ courage. And I'm going to do that. And I think through that process, people can feel a great sense of pride and personal accomplishment.

Andre Lugo 31:16
And that's ultimately what I think is is the goal is that sense of accomplishment. And for us, and people like myself, who are consultants who have to help change behavior, who have to drive process improvement, to achieve an objective, a savings or a throughput, increase, whatever it is, getting people to own and have that power of choice to be able to sustain it and live by that value and be happy that they achieved it and be proud of their future self for doing it.

Itamar Marani 31:52
Yeah, cool. I want to I want to give you one more tool here, if I may, exactly. It's cool to have that power of choice. So and this is how it would work it. The moment you're getting emotional, is when you actually have the power of choice. Now what you want to do is be able to recognize when are you getting emotion when you're trying to get hijacked by your amygdala, your low level, self, whatever you want to call it. And the process that I usually use with people is the ABC triangle. So the ABC triangle, something that actually learned about originally from the head of psychology of the Mossad, he explained it to me, and it made a lot of sense to me and something I teach with all my people. So A is effect. How do I feel? B is body behavior. What happens to me physically? And see is cognitive, what are my thoughts? So for example, if I know that whenever these three beliefs, these named beliefs, that we said, these are the biggest constraints, to me taking the correct actions pop up, I feel nervous. I feel scared. For example, for me, personally, I feel agitated. And I feel very aggressive. That's my default mechanism. It's a protective mechanism. For some people, it's nervous. For some people, it's scary. For some people, it's shy, or some people it's timid. So if you can know, what are the ways that I feel when these three beliefs are affecting me, it's really powerful, because then you can say, Oh, wait, if I noticed that I'm feeling this way, I need to stop. Because this belief is trying to hijack my thinking. That's the effect. Is that clear?

Andre Lugo 33:22
Yes, yes. Yes. You

Itamar Marani 33:27
be for you, Andre.

Andre Lugo 33:28
So for me, I think it's when you start to feel overwhelmed, I feel when I start to feel overwhelmed, like my plates getting full with trying to get the client to achieve an objective, that I want them to take an action that they're resisting, for some reason, and then I feel myself getting, you know, that anxiety of I gotta get this done, because if I don't, it's all I back off from coaching. Me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Itamar Marani 34:02
Beautiful. Great. So it's anxiety overall for you. Awesome. So let's move to be these body behavior. So what happens to me physically, for some people, they slam doors, they type really hard at the keyboard. For some people, it's also cravings, let's say for food, or some people, it's drugs. For some people, it's sex or pornography, whatever it may be. Like, for me, my main way physical is that I recognize I get very antsy, like I need to go work out, or I clench my jaw or my nostrils flare. When that happens, again, that means I'm getting really agitated. And that's how physically like if my wife is in the room, she becomes even more agitated right now I can see it very clearly on him. And that's also a way for me to pick up that because I'm not aware of how I'm feeling. But if I notice all of a sudden that I'm clenching my jaw, I can take a step back, whoa, something something's been bugging me here. And I'm probably ascribing way more meaning to it than it should be. Because one of my beliefs are flaring up. And I'm not being logical about the situation. So I need to calm down. Take a breath In fact, I wouldn't be for you the body.

Andre Lugo 35:04
For me, I would say, I know for me, I start to feel a certain amount of stress, and I want to become very curt. And and, you know, I want to cut people in, it's like, I don't want to hit, I want people to stop talking to me, you know, I want I want to shut down any kind of any kind of resistance that I'm experiencing.

Itamar Marani 35:27
Okay, so that's going to be cognitive. But what do you think physically? So let me ask this your wife? How would if I asked her? How would I be able to see visually? What would I see in Andre? When he gets stressed or anxious or overwhelmed? She probably, what would she say? She

Andre Lugo 35:42
would probably say that my facial features would definitely, definitely demonstrate that. I'm getting very, you know, I'm getting pushed to the point where I'm shutting down. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 35:55
Yeah, great. So that's something for you to know, say, okay, when I noticed that I'm making a face. That's when I got to take a step back. Now, the see the last part, that's the cognitive, that's what goes on in my head. So for example, you probably hear a voice in your head saying, Man, I wish you would just be quiet and just get to work them. Or something along those lines? Are there specific phrases that you notice yourself saying?

Andre Lugo 36:19
Oh, that's a good question. I think a lot of times, yeah, my I could start to tell start to say things like, Okay, I don't want to hear any more. This is what needs to happen and needs to happen now. Yeah, for me personally, that's, that's huge. That's huge.

Itamar Marani 36:43
There's some times where that actually does need to be the truth. Like sometimes. Alright, guys, enough, we need to get the work done. But do you notice yourself saying things in your head? Like why this person not getting it? Or they just are the mental things? Because it's because sometimes, so do you have any good

Andre Lugo 37:02
also to say sometimes I can default to that. But other times, when I'm really cognizant, I may say, Okay, what do I need to do differently here to get it because this approach isn't working, I need to possibly change the approach that I'm taking, or, you know, you've you've got on my last nerve, and, you know, we need to, we need to I need you just make this happen. You know, and sometimes that that was great, gets the job done. But did I do the right thing and helping them feel like it was something they wanted to connect to? As opposed to just Alright, he's angry with me. Now. Let me get it done.

Itamar Marani 37:42
Yeah, so what are the thoughts that go on in your head when you're angry? And again, this is not something that like, for me, for example, the things I have, like, why this person has fucking get it? Why did they want to just do the work? Or I don't want to deal with this nonsense. It's not things that I would say I'm proud of that, I think. But it's what my more primal like brain. That's what it comes up with. So that's when I say, Oh, I'm thinking in a way that I'm not proud of. This is an intelligent Itamar. Stepping up, this is primal. Itamar stepping up, so I need to catch this. And if I can have these kinds of thoughts, and I can recognize, oh, Itamar is starting to swear or whatever it may be in his head, not that people were going It's okay. He's being hijacked by a lower level. Itamar. So, do you notice any things that you could say? These are the thoughts that go on in my head when I'm not at my best?

Andre Lugo 38:26
Oh, for sure. Because I start to get critical. I'm incredibly critical at in situations like that, where in my head, my self talk or my inner monologue starts to starts to think about, okay, you know, you know, what's wrong with you? In a Why aren't you? Why Yeah, that's great. Yeah. You know, why don't you run a mask, that

Itamar Marani 38:51
specific phrase, even if you can catch yourself? Yeah, if you can catch yourself saying to someone, what's wrong with you? That's obviously like, from a high level, that's not a very productive way to think and communicate with people. For sure. That's where we want to stop ourselves. Because that's probably something you can recognize, oh, when I hear this in my head, when I think what's wrong with someone, I actually need to take a step back. Because right now about to do something unproductive, because I'm going to vent my emotions on this situation, instead of employing my logic to actually better the situation. And that's a really powerful tool, because now you have the ability to recognize, okay, when I feel anxious and overwhelmed, or when I make a face, or when I say to myself, I hear this voice in my head saying what's wrong with you? Now I have the power. Now the power to recognize Oh, wait, I'm starting to get emotional here. What belief is causing this is one of my beliefs being touched here being poked one of my insecurities, perhaps. And is this belief true? Or is this insecurity valid? If not, okay, I gotta take a step back for a second, catch a breath, and then do the right thing even though it feels uncomfortable. And that tool of recognizing, when you get emotional, that gives you the opportunity to be in a position of power.

Andre Lugo 40:10
Awesome. That's, that's powerful. Because, again, it's recognizing it in the moment when it's occurring. And being aware of that, and then using the power of the process to, to double down on the right thing. And and and understand what emotion is potentially driving that and then realize, oh, we want to stop that.

Itamar Marani 40:37
Yeah, and the beauty of it is if you do the legwork of again, clarifying what you want, what you don't want to regret, what are the correct values and actions you need to distill from that? And then what are the main beliefs that would cause you to not do that. And if they're true or not, all of a sudden, you can compress time because you've done the legwork. So when you catch yourself in a moment, I'm going to get a little bit emotional in a matter of a couple of seconds. And the more you do it, the better you get at it, you can obviously get yourself to a place where recognize, oh, Itamar is being emotional here. He's not he's about to do something, it's not actually going to serve the goal. It's not the action that he shouldn't be taking. So why is he about to do this? Oh, because it's poking at insecurity of his. And he has a belief that if this happens, he won't get what he actually wants. or something's bad's gonna happen to him. But it's actually it's not true. And I know this isn't true. So I need to take a step back, take a breath, calm, be calm and actually do the correct thing. Even if it feels uncomfortable. And we do that legwork. You can really compress time. And if you have that also ability to catch yourself. And when you need to actually do that mental model, when you can act it when you start getting emotional. It's a very powerful thing.

Andre Lugo 41:43
Oh, I agree with everything you just said. And we discussed, being able to catch yourself in that moment, and then be able to arrest it, so to speak with the mental model, because you've like you said, did the legwork. Now it becomes easier to say, okay, I can now make compressed time, make the switch and not have to spend the next couple of hours trying to calm down from that emotional, you know, moment.

Itamar Marani 42:12
Or beyond that spend the next couple of months or perhaps even worst case scenario, years undoing the mistake that I made, because it was emotional, because I said the thing I shouldn't have said, because I didn't think I shouldn't have done. You honest me myself coming down. That's like a good case scenario, I guess, if you're just a bit heated, and you need to calm down for a couple hours. But you can avoid making very poor decisions that you'll regret. Because again, if you can not act in an irrational emotional way, but employ your logic and do the correct things, it will align towards your goals. That's how you went. But if you're getting hijacked by your emotions, it's a tough out. And that's really what I want to empower people to not get hijacked by their emotions.

Andre Lugo 42:56
I'm writing notes as we're talking.

Itamar Marani 43:02
I don't want to go too long. But I want to do you have good?

Andre Lugo 43:06
Now I was just gonna say I mean, these are good things because you want to be able for someone like myself, I want to be able to also help clients be able to work through these kinds of things, in their own situations, quickly, so that the thing that we need to achieve as a team gets accomplished, as opposed to, yeah, we forced it. But now we walk away and come back in two months, and they're back to square one.

Itamar Marani 43:33
Yeah, yeah. So let me ask this. Do you have any last question? Somebody say this is something I'm curious about? How would I do this? You've had a case that you said, this is a client of mine has been stuck here. I haven't been able to do this. Anything that I can help out with while we're here?

Andre Lugo 43:48
Well, that's great question. So I think I think, for me, the the big thing would be when you have a client that is just giving you pushback, just because they don't want to do something. And you're trying not to demonstrate frustration, or anxiety or anger are great ways to redirect those questions, redirect the discussions so that it gets them to explore what they need to do, rather than trying to convince them. Okay,

Itamar Marani 44:27
do I have your permission to be honest with you? Yes. There's probably something there. That's your own stuff that you're projecting onto the situation beyond the client itself. Because if they don't want to do it, that shouldn't make you feel a certain way. Should we logically be like, Okay, if this person doesn't want to win, I'm going to try to help them. But anyway, that's on them. But if there's me as the consultant I feel if he doesn't get the result, what does it say about me? Am I not good enough? If someone's gonna be upset at me, whatever it be, then I project my emotions onto it. And then it's when we can good by itself, that's when it's ego start colliding. So first off is recognizing that I shouldn't be projecting my own stuff onto this situation. I'm okay, I have a track record, like I know you have a very long track record, you've worked internationally. And that's the thing to recognize first, not everybody wants to do the work. And that's accepting it. And I'm assuming that also a lot of the guys you work with there might not be paying for their consults. It's their company. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. Yeah, so and that's a challenging thing, from my experience, like, I've worked with some some big CEOs as well that the founders pay and not the CEO. And it's always more challenging, there's not as much by it. So that's the first thing to recognize that you don't need to take that as a personal thing that they're against you. Because once we do that, then we start butting heads is like our egos are butting heads. Now, with that said, if they don't want to take action, what I've found is a question that really pokes people be like, do you want the result? Let's be honest here. And if they say yes, then we have to confront them with the truth in a very honest, I'm extremely blunt and straightforward with what I say. And I'm extremely compassionate, and caring with how I say it. And there's finality of it. So I will say, Listen, do you want to achieve this result? Yes or no? Truthfully, let me calm down the whole voice. Do you want this result? They say yes. Being Okay, so are we on our way to get there, honestly, is that what do you think? The ABYC ish? Can I be honest with you? And at first, I asked you this, that I just arm people with a question. Because as soon as I asked someone, Can I be honest with you, or you, I want your permission to be honest with you, all of a sudden, you recognize, oh, this is an ally, he's asking. He's not just talking at me. And once we become allies, so here's the deal, what we're doing right now, it's not gonna get us there. And notice the words I'm using, it's us. We're a team here, we're trying to do this together. I absolutely know that we can get to the goal if we do these things. But what I'm noticing in you is that there's a part of you, not you, there's a part of you, that's showing some resistance here. So let's figure out what that part is. So that we can get you to the finish line, you can win, and you can have all the rewards that you want, that you can earn. And usually that creates a big shift in people is they recognize I'm an ally and ally, sorry, and I'm not putting the place, I'm not placing the blame on them. I think there's a part of you that's struggling with this, I can tell you want to win, but there's something in you that's holding you back. So let's figure out what that is. Together. Often they don't feel attacked, they don't feel attacked, they can open up. But with that said, some people just don't want to win. That's the reality of it. And I think it's also important to accept, not everybody that you don't see results with, it's not always your fault. There's a fit issues, some people just don't want to win. They rather play politics or whatever and be. And that's just the reality of it.

Andre Lugo 48:13
And that's true. And I think you speak right to the point of a lot of what we experienced sometimes when when the sponsors, not the you know, when the company owner or is paying, you know, is the sponsor of the project, but the people that are going to be impacted by our work, don't necessarily have invited us it's again, trying to overcome those challenges. So I think you articulated that. You wrote some notes on what you just said, and definitely, I think, good stuff, good stuff, particularly asking for the permission, because I think that, like you said, takes it off, takes it off of the ego and puts it in the clearly in this in the situation of Do I have your permission to be honest. And I like I like that approach.

Itamar Marani 49:05
And it's, it's a very subtle thing, but it almost makes them feel like they're in a higher ground than me. Because if I have to ask their permission, then they're higher than me, then I'm treating them with respect. And all of a sudden, they don't feel like I'm the consultant that's coming above them. So therefore they have to puff their chest and defend their ego. Because if he's asking me for permission, then there's not this power struggle anymore, so I can be more open. Like whenever I want to drop a very called a bomb on someone were to say something, it's very direct, it could be very painful. That's always a preemptive question I ask. Because they recognize that I'm about to say it and like all my clients know this, that when I say that to them, they're like, Okay, let's recognize that. I'm asking their permission because I want to help them. So whatever I say afterwards, it comes with a completely different sense attached to it.

Andre Lugo 50:01
And again, what we're looking to do is be that trusted advisor, be that person that they look and see value from so that they want to listen to what we have to say. So yes, absolutely. I think that's definitely great.

Itamar Marani 50:15
Cool. Any other last questions you have any one more time for? Oh,

Andre Lugo 50:21
it's, it's, it's been a pleasure to speak with you. And because I really have enjoyed the podcasts and all the all the material that you you produce and and the content that you generate. And so getting to understand some of the finer points of this process is it's been very, very good to me for so I certainly appreciate that. I guess the question is, do you find that in the in the guys that you actually work with? Do you find that the majority are taking the actions that you help them, you know, that you explore with them? And are they finding themselves choosing success at the end of the day?

Itamar Marani 51:07
Oh, that's a good question, choosing success like that. So truthfully, yes. So the guys that I work with, I say this first off, we're very, I'm very selective of who I work with. It's also a part of it, I don't take on people that I don't think are actually going to be about it. Like a big thing that I say internally to the team is that we help winners win. We help people who really want to win, but are there struggling like, Man, I really want to do it. But I feel like I'm holding myself back, I'm stuck on something I really want to win, though. We help those people get over the hump, and remove this stuff. So we put ourselves in a position to work with people, we're going to win. And I think that's been the biggest part. It's not about trying to help people who are just lazy or unmotivated, or resistance, like I'm not trying to convert anyone from being completely motivated, a couch potato to all of a sudden wanting to conquer the world, I'd be perfectly try to choose people who want to do big things, and also have a certain level of ownership and humility, to say, You know what I want to do the work, I just want to find someone I can respect actually guide me through this process. And because we find those white people, and we put them in the right groups, I'm very selective about it. Because we don't want the wrong person to infiltrate those groups and ruin the entire atmosphere. People do see success.

Andre Lugo 52:24
That's awesome. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. I mean that, that, that makes so much sense. Because you definitely want to work with people who, like you said, we help winners when I wrote that down and put it in a box. Because I think that that soundbite is, is so poignant to what helps people understand that if you're going to be allowed into this group, you need to be a person, or we perceive you as a person who really wants to take it to the next level. And when Vic.

Itamar Marani 52:57
Awesome, I want to say thank you for doing this. Thank you, first of all, for sending that email with it with the flowchart. It was very interesting to see. And also I really appreciate it, you know, put out this content, sometimes you never know how people react to it. So seeing somebody goes through that effort to put it all together and say this is very helpful. It was very nice to see. And it also honestly taught me a lesson like I do not do that kind of thing enough for people that I also want to connect with. And I should, because it's a very powerful way to connect with people and reach out and say, I really respect what you've done this what I think about it. And it's a lesson that I need to do more of it myself as well. So thank you for teaching me that lesson showing it to me? Well, I

Andre Lugo 53:32
think like I said in the email, it's like the Rosetta Stone of really trying to put it all together because I think it's it's a cool roadmap on how people can really take, you know, see what you're doing, and be able to visually get it right. And so executing on what we've just talked about. And the whole process is just incredible. I think it's awesome, because there are so many people out there that that need that kind of help. And they're struggling to succeed and they fail, and they can't understand why. And so I love the way every step of your process anchors you back to certain elements, that if you do them, they follow from each other. And then the check sheet at the end, you know, gives you a way weekly to see am I doing? Is it helping me? You know, so that's awesome.

Itamar Marani 54:23
Yeah. Awesome. All right. Thank you very much, Andre. Appreciate your time, and we'll see everyone on the next episode. Thank you guys. Thank you for listening to the emotional fortitude podcast. Please tell a friend if you enjoyed it and found value in it. Three last things before you go though. If you feel like someone else with your exact skillset and abilities could be accomplishing more than you currently are. That's a mindset and emotional access issue. And here are three ways I'd love to help you conquer any internal limitations. Go big and win one, three quick ideas Tuesday newsletter. It's a weekly email with three quick ideas around one aspect of elite performance and how to approach it differently to get better and faster results. People say it's the most thought provoking and impactful two minutes they spend in their inbox each week. It's easy to sign up to and easy to cancel and you can sign up at Itamar marani.com/three ideas to is the emotional fortitude micro course. It will help you build the emotional fortitude and conflict tackle any goal it's the complete nothing held back emotional fortitude system and five simple parts. It's all under five minutes each module, see it, use it and win. And it's completely free at Itamar marani.com/course. And number three, lastly, if you want to dive in and aggressively level up, the Rena mindset accelerate might be for you. It's a six week intense sprint for entrepreneurs who are up for dramatic transformation to an interactive live program where we will be working with me in a very hands on way to get clarity on what you want. Build an effective mindset to optimize for your goals and establish elite emotional fortitude that will allow you to overcome any fear or doubt that can get in your way. You can learn more at Itamar marani.com/accelerator. You can find all of these links in the show notes below or go to Itamar marani.com and have a look around. Until next time, Who Dares Wins.