Tough Conversations and Standing Up To Rude People [Part 2] | Elite Performance Podcast #15

Itamar Marani 0:00
A quick note before we get started today. So this episode is a follow up to the episode we released a month ago about how to have tough conversations and assert your boundaries. The reason we split them up and then do them one after the other was because of the holidays. And we wanted to put out an episode that was specifically practical for the holiday time. So if you haven't listened to the previous episodes were released a month ago about how to have tough conversations and assert your boundaries. Please do this first, and then this episode will make a lot more sense. Aside from that, enjoy the pod.

Welcome to today's episode, guys, today is going to be a follow up of the previous episode we did around boundaries and tough conversations. Because after we recorded the pod, some people reach out to me, I'm assuming some people also reached out to you people had questions. And I also actually had some insights myself, I ran the Legion, which is the ongoing support program of the Rena through a workshop about the relationship stuff and the frameworks. And from that workshop, I also realized that I think I missed the one biggest thing and all this framework. So what we're going to do today is first bring that up, but actually think is the most crucial thing that without it, all this stuff doesn't work. And then I want to dive deeper into the conversation. But Emily, you brought up about the smoking and then somebody asked to smoke, because I explained why I did that to my wife after she listened to the podcast. And she was like how you think is very, very different than anyone else, even though you're weird as this. So I figured I should bring it up because it could be a value because I think it's an interesting perspective. And it's why I'm comfortable setting boundaries in all places where I see other people struggle with it. So on that note, thank you for joining me, Emil, Hayden,

Dr. Emil 1:29
thank you for having made this is a hugely important topic. And I don't think it can be spoken about enough. There's this concept of if you know, and don't do, then you don't know. And even though people will listen to the first podcast, they still won't implement this, right. This is, you know, one of those taking hard actions in the moment, and most people will continue to take the easy action. So any information about this is going to be beneficial. Any more context, any more examples. So this, this is a hugely, hugely valuable podcast in that regard.

Itamar Marani 2:05
Awesome. All right. So what we did in the last podcast, we gave you guys a framework, do 123457. And you'll be able to have a really great conversation. And when I was talking to my guys in Louisiana was workshopping through this with them. And then I was like, Wait, but all of this is irrelevant. If we're not clear on the intention of why we're trying to have this conversation. And I think setting that intention at the beginning. Without that, it's all around that whole love and version. If you can't clarify the beginning of the conversation with the other person, hey, I want to have a productive conversation, because I want us to have a better working relationship, I want you to succeed as an employee or to my spouse, because I love you. And I want us to be able to enjoy each other. And that's why I think we should have this conversation. But I want to do it in a productive way. If you don't set that tone, and that intention from the start, I think you're missing it. Because they're gonna get defensive, they're gonna think you're criticizing them. But if you set ahead of time, the intention of saying, hey, I want to do this because I see a better positive future for both of us. If we do this, they can get on board. And all of a sudden, instead of you guys arguing against each other, you're together the team trying to figure something out, that would be better for both of you. You remember them basically, you recruited and so I just wanted to add that you recruit them with you, in order to figure out a problem by stating that instead of you trying to go against them, by you saying, Hey, we're both in this together, I want things in workplaces, I want things to be better, I want to have a better work relationship, I want you to succeed more, you're recruiting them. And all of a sudden, they're with you together and how we can figure out this problem. It's not that I have a problem with you. And the same thing with love life, it's if you can tell your partner, I love you. And I want us to figure this out so we can have a better relationship. Again, you're recruiting them and I'll send you guys together on the same team. And that's where you can really have a productive conversation. And let's go back into this a little bit by theme. You want to say something?

Dr. Emil 4:02
Yeah, so you mentioned it's about tone and intention and it's about setting the culture in that relationship for this to be the norm. It communicating it is important but then following that up with with actions and showing that it's true and being consistent in how that how that happens. So, when you communicate a boundary you make it about the boundary you make it about mutual love lifting rather than a personal thing and ego thing and this if you do that consistently then it becomes this mutually beneficial relationship especially for you know, love life, close friends, partners, especially for work relationships. I am intrigued how you approach this for one off interactions like we discussed about the smoking but I just wanted to kind of raise that because setting the intention with Hey, I think we should that this this is for both of us. benefit, saying it once is a part of this and important, it then needs to be followed up by action, it then needs to be followed up with consistency.

Itamar Marani 5:08
So honestly, I agree with you, but I think they're two different things. Having the tough, you're talking about boundaries. Right now I'm talking about how to have a tough conversation first to figure out what needs to be done, and so on and so on. I think as far as that recruiting the other person to recognize that we're trying to figure out something together. Now we're trying to assign blame, or shame or guilt, like it's perfectly fine to assent to, to assign fault, but not from a place of shaming or guilt is, and this is the reason why this happened. This is the fault in the in the system, the mechanism, whatever you want to call it, but recruiting them together, there's no that okay, I want to help you find this fault. So you can be better. If it's in a work scenario, and you have an employee, him understanding, I'm trying to take care of you. So you can be a better employee so you can succeed more. And so let's together figure out why this isn't working. So you can be a better version of yourself that you want to be. It creates a whole different dynamic.

Dr. Emil 6:03
It for sure. However, just saying that, first off, it's not a tough conversation to say, hey, we're both on the same side. Let's crush this together. This is a very everyone wants to be on the same side, right?

Itamar Marani 6:15
Yeah. Yesterday.

Dr. Emil 6:18
You say just before you tell someone that they fucked up, all right, they may not believe you, they will take it hard. It's an ego thing. But if you could gotten gone,

Itamar Marani 6:30
I think most people struggle to do that. Because again, what we talked about in the previous episode, they already have something pent up. Yeah, what we're seeing right now, this is the logical thing to do get someone on your team. But again, because a lot of people don't give themselves permission, they end up having a blowout, or they're just not aware that this is how I should be approaching it. Instead of saying, Hey, David, I have no problem with you doing this, this and this. Okay, David. So you're a great employee, we know this is your targets, this is where you want to get through in the company and the business, whatever it may be. So I see this as a gap, that together we got to figure out so you can get to the next level. Yeah, by just by doing that, and setting that intention, all of a sudden, David's a partner, He's not someone you're having a tough conversation against. He's someone you're figuring out a problem with, figure out a solution.

Dr. Emil 7:17
I agree, I just, this takes repetition. Like just saying that the first time when you have this conversation doesn't make it true, they still will take it personally. But after you've done it a number of times, and they can feel and see that this action is aligned with those words, then it will become a thing, then it will become a relationship, then it will become much easier to have these tough conversations to have these boundaries.

Itamar Marani 7:44
It's interesting that from my experience, so context, my experience is the the most amount of people I've employed in Neath me they were all big when I was working for the billionaire, they were all x basically Navy SEALs or Special Forces guy. So they didn't have they didn't have an ability to take feedback, but it will take literally one conversation with somebody like that. And it was done. So there is that context, honestly, when when I think about it, but yeah, it's it's just about setting the tone, but also living up to that not just talking that talk, but walking that walk.

Dr. Emil 8:13
It's actions and words, and in my context would be saying, in an emergency room speaking to, you know, one of the nurses or colleague, doctors, any conversation of criticism would be taken personally as defaults. And you would have to have a relationship and reputation for being fair and working in partnership and not always being a dick. For that to actually have the the intention that you want, say, hey, you know that because there's plenty of people out there who are like, Hey, this is a team, you're shitter what you do, and they say one thing that behave in a totally different way. Everyone has the attention, you know, they read the right books, they're like, oh, yeah, we were a team, we need to do this together. But then they don't actually communicate in that way. They don't actually have that intent.

Itamar Marani 9:03
That it's interesting. It's beyond that intense that integrity. I didn't even think about that. So it's of course, you're gonna have integrity, but it's a great point you bring up some people gotta recognize that. I do want to say one more thing here that I think is a bit of a shortcut to this, in a way, because basically, what you're saying right now is, if I tell somebody this, they want to ask, well, in the future, are you actually going to live by this or not. And something that I've found to work really, really well in my wife and I's relationship, when we have this is that we schedule a time to have a conversation. And before we have that conversation, we also schedule a time to go on a date night right afterwards. So what we recognize is what we're trying to do here is for the betterment of a relationship that we really love and appreciate and having that nozzle good okay, we're going to have a fight. And then we're going to be angry, but let's have a conversation and then let's go appreciate each other, enjoy each other and go have a date. but it sets a very different tone to the whole conversation, just knowing ahead of time again, that we're not trying to fight here, we're trying to figure something out, because we want to keep the drink together more and more. And the same thing. I wonder if you could do the same thing in a business? I haven't done that yet. But I can absolutely see people doing reviews with people before a big company event, then all going in bonding and joined together. Do you think that's an option?

Dr. Emil 10:23
I agree, I agree. And, you know, a very easy example in a company would be after giving that feedback, then, immediately afterwards, behaving normally again, not, you know, like being grumpy and stamping around.

Itamar Marani 10:37
Or I'll say this, even though because there's a place of balance, there's a center point where that employee was before he gave him criticism, like, let's say, his happiness level, or whatever it may be. Now, you gave him a little bit of criticism, he's probably veered off a little bit. So if you can do something to correct that by going out for a company dinner afterwards, and that could be very, very positive. You know, I mean, it's very shareable.

Dr. Emil 11:00
But you can't go for a company dinner. Every time you give someone feedback, you know, you can,

Itamar Marani 11:04
you can, but sometimes when you have to have a tough conversation, even you're just having a chat with them after you're done, yay, how's life, five minutes, how's life exact, all of a sudden, there's a little bit of connection, it doesn't feel that it's just been talked down to, exactly that can make a world of a difference.

Dr. Emil 11:18
And even in the example of the relationship, you know, the first time that you do that you have a difficult conversation with a date afterwards, the date is going to be tough, because there's going to be maybe inertia, resentment, whatever. But it's a skill like anything else. And it may take a number of goes before you can switch from Oh, that was a tough conversation, I feel like shit, too. And now we can have a date. So that just for people listening, be aware of that. Same with the conversations, you have to have the conversation, someone's going to feel like shit, we expect that it's normal, it's human, then you can kind of go back to behaving normally afterwards, or even positively, if possible, they still may not respond, they may still close down. But over time, they will get a feel that this is how it works. And that you don't mean anything bad to them, you just want them to improve and rise together.

Itamar Marani 12:12
I'll say this, I'm not in full agreement with you, I think you can absolutely mitigate the effect of how bad people feel after these conversations. by clarifying the intent. Again, it might not go down to zero. But by clarifying the intent that we're trying to do this together. And you don't need to get defensive, because I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just trying to help you improve the behavior that you're doing whatever it may be, it's doable. I'll be honest with you, this could be a thing that maybe you haven't had success with in the past. But it doesn't mean that it's not doable. I've seen this done many, many times. And that creating that intent and recruiting somebody to have a conversation with you and how you can help both both of you can help him or her or whatever it may be. It makes a monumental difference. In a lot of the, the After Effects we're talking about the might not be there. And again, I do recognize that I've mostly worked with people that are a certain level of certain also accustomed to receiving feedback. But I've also done this with other people as well.

Dr. Emil 13:13
So I agree with you 100%, that it is beyond possible. But you are, you know, a certain level of individual who was communicated with certain level of individuals, even when you're not communicating with Navy SEALs, you still have your skills with your expert, it's now we're talking to a large number of people who potentially aren't interested very high level. So just to say, Oh, if I put it in a certain way, they won't get defensive like

Itamar Marani 13:44
they were so let's, let's settle on this. First off, recognize that it is a possibility to not have a breach of resentment, but also represents that and expect that it's going to be a path to get to that level of skill. That'd be fair, boom. Perfect. Awesome. Okay, so that's the first point I wanted to make. The second point I wanted to make was about the guy though, smokes, if you could just please share the story again, just for anybody who hasn't listened to the previous episode or was week ago or whatever it may be?

Dr. Emil 14:10
Yeah, so we were attending an events we were having dinner outside. And a gentleman next to us asked, Hey, guys, do you mind if I smoke in a very much I'm going to smoke kind of way. But just asking because, you know, polite in air quotes. And not he wasn't being malicious or anything. It's just this he's always no one's ever denied. And that's what it felt like. And myself and the other guy sitting next to me, Ben won't mind if I mentioned him. We're like, Yeah, yeah, fine. As in we didn't like it. We didn't want it. But we just, we just fell to the you know, the power of his words. He was just like, he may well Oh, yeah, of course, no worries. And then Itamar was like, hey, no, actually, I'd rather you didn't something like that. I can't remember your exact words. Now. and it was fine. The guy was like, Yeah, okay. No worries. I mean, I don't know how he felt inside. But it was it was very interesting. It was very powerful. And And yeah, that was that was the story.

Itamar Marani 15:12
Yeah. So you told that story in the podcast of the week. And I was like, this is weird, because I don't really felt like I started a boundary there. And my wife also mentioned that to me, and I was like, it wasn't me asserting a boundary that dude was being a dick. Like, excuse my language, but as he's just being rude. He What do you mean? And here's his story, this might get interesting. This is what I mean by that. So this is my viewpoint on the world. How you said it wasn't malicious. It wasn't this, but he kind of knew that he could kind of get away with it. My viewpoint, he was rude. He knew what he was trying to do with expensive others. He was just hoping no one would call him out on it. He wanted to stay eating with everybody. He had his desires. You wanted to stay and eat. He didn't want to get up. And he wanted to do everything he wants to do while smoking at other people's expense. And he was just hoping, hey, if I say Does anybody mind and I say this a lot, contentiously, but this was a little bit of no one will say no to him. If he had a genuine desire to make sure that everyone around him is comfortable. First off, he might have not done it anyway. Because it's like, I don't need to check in if we're having dinner. I don't need to ask the table. Hey, would it be rude if I check a message from my wife for a second? Because I know that's not, but he knew. And he knew he needed to ask me also, you could have asked it in a completely different way. If you really want to be sincere, and non confrontation, you could have asked, Hey, general question, do you guys like or dislike when somebody smokes when you're eating dinner? Just curious. And then you and Ben, for example, would have felt completely comfortable saying, Yeah, we might we don't like it. Yeah, I'm gonna go okay, because I was gonna smoke. So you know what, I'm gonna go that way. I'm gonna go outside. I'm gonna smoke. Yeah, you're right. But he didn't choose to do that he was being rude. And that's what I was like, I have no problem telling you go away and go smoke somewhere else, because you're trying to be a dick.

Dr. Emil 16:58
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I agree. I don't. I mean, I think being a dick is a step too far. I think he was just, well, humans also recognize what? Yeah, it was the vibe, he was flexing, he was flexing and being like, this is what I want. And I'm just gonna, you know, flex a little bit with ego. And that should work. It's always worked in the past. But yeah, I

Itamar Marani 17:20
see that as being rude and being a duck, because he was just hoping that he could inconvenience other people, because no one would stand up to him. Yeah. And that's right. And feel any which way about asserting that value wasn't really about asserting boundaries. Like no, do. Don't play those games here. It's like, I see what you're doing. I don't go smoke somewhere else. That's what it was. But I didn't feel that it was any difficult for me to assert a boundary. It was just basically standing up say, Don't Don't be a dick. It's not okay. These are my friends here. You're being a dick. Go get it somewhere else. And again, I'm excuse my language on this podcast. But that was what I felt.

Dr. Emil 17:56
Yeah, I agree. And your rights. Yeah. You were being an equal and opposite dick to him. And it wasn't being a dick. It was just meeting him where he was to say, and you were perfectly polite, like his question was polite in air quotes. Like, Hey, guys, do you mind if I smoke? Awesome plates on the surface? Yours was also polite. It's like, Hey, I'd rather you didn't.

Itamar Marani 18:19
Thanks. No, there was no,

Dr. Emil 18:22
please don't. Yeah, exactly. But it was polite. No, please don't don't still polite. But it was it had the same exertion of

Itamar Marani 18:30
but again, I'll be honest, I don't like you said right now. You are also being a dick. At the same level. I don't feel that I was I don't feel that I was being rude. I don't just because he was doing something rude. And I didn't accept it doesn't mean that I'm being rude.

Dr. Emil 18:45
No, no, you're right. But you equals an opposite. It is his force. Yes, yeah.

Itamar Marani 18:51
But again, there's a big difference in him being rude using force. And me using forces college for good, whatever you want to say. And that's a big meta lesson that I wanted to talk about that I feel there's when people are testing your boundaries, not from a positive place, but just because they want to do their own thing. You speaking up, isn't that and I see this especially culturally, a lot of it's a shame a lot of women are taught that as well be a good girl. Just do this. And I see it a lot. Well, for the one on one women when I used to work with you asserting a boundary because somebody is trying to overstep is not you being bad. It's not you causing confrontation, you are the one that's causing the confrontation. Yeah, they have caused the confrontation. You standing up for yourself is perfectly valid. And that's such a big thing. I want to say this both on the podcast both for everyone and anyone but especially for women and guys, if you have daughters, this is something you got to teach people because society works a bit differently these days. But this because someone encroaches on your boundaries, you standing up for yourself does not make you a bad person. And a lot of times, people purposely try to encroach on people's boundary, because they hope they can get away with it. And that's what he was trying to do. He was hoping you could get away with it. He was hoping he could have what he wants at the expense of other people, and he could get away with it. And that's why I felt that me telling him no, I'd rather not go smoke over there. It was not me being rude in any which way. That was just me saying we're not going to tolerate your bad behavior. And I don't have to flinch about this. Yeah, thank you heard about the

Dr. Emil 20:38
No, no, no, no, no. Just the bad behavior comment made me chuckle. But I agree. I agree. And then when I had the experience, I don't know three weeks ago, now four weeks ago, where someone next to me, having brunch in Lisbon said I can't remember the words he used. But regardless, I was like, I'd rather you didn't. And it felt amazing. And also, I was sitting there awkward one meter away from this guy for the next hour. But that was on me. And that was the first rep. Right. And it'll only get easier from there. So yeah,

Itamar Marani 21:15
I think you could also make it easier for you to recognize that you are not doing anything wrong by denying this. Yeah.

Dr. Emil 21:22
Actually knowing that intellectually knowing that is different from

Itamar Marani 21:26
it is but I think most people don't even intellectually know recognize that. And if it's first you intellectually understand cognitive emotions, then you emotionally body, that's the process. So firstly, cognitive you understand, intellectually get,

Dr. Emil 21:38
I mean that the context is slightly different in that this guy was the first guy in your example was a colleague clear his friends while he was at an event. Okay, and he was on our table, whereas this other guy was on a separate table to me, and he had a legal right to smoke. Yeah. So you know, it's an interesting one, because the rights are in his, like, his bad behavior for him to smoke. I mean, it's a disgusting,

Itamar Marani 22:08
it's honestly, this is could be a different example. And he could have been actually very polite and etc. Know that situation. But yes, was obviously there was no ashtrays on the table, for example, we were setting no one.

Dr. Emil 22:18
Yeah, it was very clear. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting distinction. But yeah, this guy was polite. And I felt very good saying no, because then wanted to smoke them in the tables weren't, you know, yeah, or inches apart was bullshit. But yeah, it was great.

Itamar Marani 22:35
Yeah. And again, that kind of situation. It's absolutely possible to tell them, Hey, I'd appreciate if you don't. And then when you leave, say, I just want to say thank you for not smoking. I really appreciate it. Yeah, that's, that's really the courtesy, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Emil 22:49
That's real nice.

Itamar Marani 22:50
Yeah. Okay, so this was a bit of a quicker pod, because I want to talk about these two things. So I'm gonna, again, summarize it from my perspective. First, if you set that intention, before you have a tough conversation, and instead of you having an argument against someone or talking against them, you can recruit them. And together, you can figure out how both of you can have a better future. The whole dynamic changes. That's one. And number two. If people test your boundaries, and you stick up for them, it does not mean that you're being rude, or that you're being a bad person. It's important to recognize that give yourself permission, if someone is trying to test your boundaries. And you say, No, you didn't do anything wrong here. You weren't combative. And those things, even your first reaction, you're really evolved with this. You said you were kind of being a dick as well. But I don't think that's true. I think it's how a lot of times how we feel it is, but it's not what's actually true. You standing up for yourself is perfectly fine.

Dr. Emil 23:49
Yeah. Just to clarify that it wasn't that you were being a dick, that it was that and this is the point which may help other people is if you perceive someone as being a dick and asking, can they smoke, then you have permission to equal that even though it's not being a dick, but giving yourself permission? may give you this surgeon? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Itamar Marani 24:11
Yes. Yeah. I feel like he was being a dick. And I was being assertive. That was

Dr. Emil 24:16
exactly but yeah, exactly. Cool.

Itamar Marani 24:20
Um, do you have any last notes before we wrap this one up?

Dr. Emil 24:23
No, I think that this is a very productive and good conversation. And, again, that first point you make it's a culture thing over time. So you'll you'll build that relationship over time. And it will, it will improve.

Itamar Marani 24:36
Yeah, and I like what you said there as well, that it's both the person conducting the relationship, that skill he's going to improve and also the person the other person there. So you have two factors, your skill set the person you're talking with the skill set, you can find those you can set your expectations according to Oh, all right. Thank you very much, guys, and we will see you on the next episode. Thanks, guys.